[00:00:19] Nathan Wrigley: Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.

Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, trying to navigate the new normal for WordPress community and events.

If you’d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice. Or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.

If you have a topic that you’d like us to feature on the podcast, I’m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you or your idea featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox and use the form there.

So on the podcast today we have Simon Pollard.

Simon has been building with WordPress for many years. Originally from Devon in England, he’s worked as a professional web developer across locations, eventually landing at Illustrate Digital, where he’s been for six years.

Simon’s not just a coder. He’s been deeply involved in the WordPress community, not only organising, but helping to grow the Bristol WordPress Meetup from a casual get together in a pub, to a thriving, officially backed event with dozens of regular attendees.

Like many in the WordPress ecosystem, Simon wears multiple hats. He’s a musician, a devoted dad, and an accidental community leader who found himself at the heart of local WordPress organising. But COVID-19 changed all that.

In today’s episode, Simon explains what happened to WordPress Meetups during and after the pandemic. How vibrant communities fizzled out. How hard it was to bring people back. And the new challenges of connecting when traditional social media platforms no longer bring everyone together.

Simon talks about his own journey, how he paused on events, shifted his social life to music, and struggled to hand the Meetup keys to new organisers. Eventually, a call from an old friend drew him back and he was faced with the new reality. Smaller groups, fractured channels, and the question of how to keep the in-person spirit of WordPress alive.

We get into the irreplaceable value of real life connection, the warmth in the room, and the need to rethink what gets people to in-person events now. Is it hybrid events? Perhaps it’s music? Something beyond pure WordPress talks? We discuss what’s been lost, what still matters, and what it might take to build the new era of WordPress community in a distracted, always connected, world.

If you’re curious about the future of WordPress Meetups, if you felt the ebb and flow of community during the past few years, or if you just want to know how to find your people again, this episode is for you.

If you’re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you’ll find all the other episodes as well.

And so without further delay, I bring you. Simon Pollard.

I am joined on the podcast by Simon Pollard. Hello Simon.

[00:03:42] Simon Pollard: Hello Nathan.

[00:03:43] Nathan Wrigley: Very nice to chat. Simon and I have met for the first time, just sort of 10 minutes ago. We’ve had a little bit of a chat. And as is so often the case, Simon has a musical instrument in the background. I don’t know what that is, but there’s definitely a thing there. WordPressers often have musical instruments.

[00:03:57] Simon: There’s more behind me as well. And randomly, I’ll bring in another fact, so I’m in a very casual band of predominantly mid forties internet developing type people. And, yeah, we’re all the same, we all play instruments. And randomly we all, without being connected in any way, can work in the same one building in Bristol, which is co-working in individual offices and we all found out we’re all in the same building. And that wasn’t how we met.

[00:04:21] Nathan Wrigley: I think probably anybody listening to this has figured out by your accent that you’re from the UK. And you mentioned Bristol just there.

[00:04:27] Simon: Well, Brizzle if I’m going to be correct.

[00:04:29] Nathan Wrigley: Right at the top of the podcast, we typically ask the guests to just give us a little potted bio, a moment or two just telling us who you are. And as it’s a WordPress podcast, just give us your background with WordPress, I guess, as well.

[00:04:40] Simon: Yeah, well, I’m from Devon originally, which the English people will pick up on the accent potentially. I try to hide that away, but every now and again a little bit of farmer will come out and it’ll be oh, argh. And then, yeah, so I was born in Devon, moved away into to Cheltenham, been to Cardiff and then ended up in Bristol and worked at various places amongst all of them.

Bristol was where I finally got my kind of proper web job, an actual proper official web job. And the first company I started used WordPress as one of the platforms, and that’s from where I started off my kind of professional career. Moved around a few places since then as developers do, but always kind of staying in the area. And then currently, I am now at Illustrate Digital. Been there for six years, joined at the start of 2020, so that was an interesting progression, we’ll cover that later.

During my time in Bristol, it was someone else who originally raised the idea of a Meetup for of WordPress devs to kind of meet up and have a chat. So myself and a few others met up with this one guy called Henry, and we just met at the pub, sat around a table and had a chat and said, what are you doing? What do you need help with? What would we like to talk about?

And it kind of progressed from being, so we had a few more kind of casual chats, managed to grow. I think there was about six of us met originally and we kind of grew a bit and then said, oh, should we try doing like talks and making it a bit more official? So we progressed onto that. Struggled to find speakers, which I think is the story of absolutely every Meetup is find someone to talk. So I ended up doing a lot of talks myself, which I didn’t mind, but there was only so many times I can involve cats and WordPress together in the same thing.

And then it grew a bit. The key point for me is we took on someone who was a project manager by trade, who was also a developer. And they created a Trello board, and then suddenly we got organised. And I don’t know how, we kind of reached out, I remember now as I’ve just literally spoken to Jenny Wong who works over at Human Made, and she was assisting and she said, you know, is there anything I can do?

And she came over, I was working in Bath at the time. So she came over in person, back in the day when you met in person. Came over to Bath and we sat down and had a coffee and a chat, and she gave me all the tips and advice she could to kind of help build the Meetup and get it bigger and try and get things working.

She also helped us get official backing. So we got the WordPress official backing for the Meetup, which is brilliant because that gave us funds. That allowed us to start hiring venues which is brilliant. So all the worry of paying for kind of costs or anything for the venues got covered by WordPress. We still reached out for sponsors, and the sponsors gave us money for food. Food is obviously a good tool to get people in as well.

It just kind of grew. And I’m not sure what made it grow or how it grew, but it just kind of fed through. But this was back in the day when social media was less run by maniacs and you were happy to post on Twitter and Facebook and it kind of grew from that. I already had quite a good Twitter following, so I just kind of shouted there all the time and tried to pull in everybody and anyone who isn’t at all connected to the internet.

We went to Facebook, I got a friend of mine, was a bit of a social media guy, he set us up several kind of media accounts and added his advice. And then, yeah, just kind of moved on, and we were getting in a good crowd. Towards the end of 2019 into 2020 we were getting say 30, 40 people coming along to the Meetup, which is really impressive.

So we’d fill out a room, we’d get catering in, that would all get done. We had an account, we were that kind of organised, so we had an actual bank account to put our sponsorship money in. We were in profit at one point. So it was crazy. It was just going, yeah, going really well. Lovely kind of gathering, it was just a nice thing. We ran monthly. The organising team grew to about six or seven of us, because there was so much to do. So there’s plenty of us involved.

And yeah, it was going great, all going along lovely. 2020 came about and then suddenly COVID, and that was it. It kind of stopped because it had to, and none of us had the appetite to do the video side of things. We didn’t really have the technology, or the means, and it was just too much with everything else that was going on in the world. So it kind of petered out, and as did my involvement in the community, as much as in person involvement kind of faded out.

And I looked back and, yeah, the last meetup that I attended was in 2020, before just the other week when I’ve gone back, but like the last one was 2020 was the last, looking at my logs, the last Meetup I attended in person, which is quite sad to look back. But this all changed around. I’ve gone very off topic of what I actually do. I think I just went into this hole.

[00:08:49] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, no, it’s great because obviously what the listener doesn’t know is that you and I already know this is what we’re destined to talk about. So you’ve given us the full introduction. So I’ll just take over for a minute, if that’s all right? Because that’s really the case, I think you could map that across all of the WordPress Meetups within the UK.

So prior to COVID, things seemed to be going great guns. There were lots and lots happening. I don’t know the exact number, but there were many. I could pluck out of the air several, and probably, if you combined all of the numbers of those, it was hundreds of people, you know, getting out of their house, going to an event, sharing expertise but also, like you said, the social side of things.

And then this moment in time, this kind of sword of Damocles, if you like, suddenly that we didn’t know was there, dropped. Killed the whole thing overnight for good reason. You know, there was a really legitimate reason for everybody to stop moving around. But it seemed to have changed something for good.

Now what’s curious about that is I remember being in that COVID time, and I remember being utterly fed up and bored, and praying for the time when things would just return back to normal. And with great speed, actually, with the benefit of hindsight, looking back, that almost seems like I watched a COVID TV program. You know, it seems like, obviously I know it was real to me, but it all seems so in the rear view mirror now. It was almost like it was part of a fictional book or something like that.

But I fully expected that the minute all of the guards, and the protections, and the legislation came away, that I would just drop back into everything that I’d done before. And so for me, that’s what happened. I went immediately back to everything, you know, attending events, and all the other different things that I do in my own spare time that have got nothing to do with WordPress.

But the curious thing is, for me at least anyway, is that I appear to be different. You know, you’ve just gone back, within the last few weeks or so. What changed for you? Have you had the time to be introspective and think to yourself, why, Simon, did I not just resume what I was doing before?

[00:10:59] Simon: Yeah. So I mean it’s twofold for me. Yeah, I’ve been very reflective over the last kind of few weeks on this because I’m just reaching out again and seeing people. It’s like, I’ve not seen you in six years and it’s kind of crazy. Well I mean I spoke to them online and responded to comments here and there but, yeah, for me it was twofold.

So during the COVID times I was fortunate enough to have a baby, which changes everything again anyway. And that just became my focus. So whilst working full time and also having a child, that was my focus. The evenings, when I used to have the time to go to the Meetups and everything, in the evening, if I had any spare time, I would just prefer to sit. I didn’t want to do anything else. I didn’t have any energy. I was spent. I was enjoying a glorious moment of sitting, and if I was lucky watching a bit of TV. Yeah, it took it all out of me.

So I’ve put things on pause in that sense. I wasn’t really doing anything. Yeah, as you’ve mentioned the guitars and everything, used to go to gigs a lot as well, but that kind of went on hold. The music side ironically kicked off after. So that’s something that did come in first. So whilst I didn’t go to Meetups, some other people, when things got back reached out to me and said, oh, I’m running a band, do you fancy joining that? So that became my kind of social outlet instead. So my focus went on that, and playing in a band and just meeting up with them. So that was my social interaction.

Ironically, that was someone I knew through, not through Meetups but through events they used to run, I think it was Future of Web Design, or future of, one of those that was down in London. A lady called Michelle, who also has a child, used to live behind me, back in the day in Bristol. She’s moved away. And then she just dropped a message on one of the other social platforms, which I’ll go back to, and just said, oh, do you fancy joining a band, I do drums? I didn’t even know she played drums. Like, she’d been playing drums since kind of school and it just came out.

So that was my social outlet for a while. So I was doing that, and that was good because that was like once a month or so we’d just meet up and have a few hours. My wife could look after my little girl. And so that was my focus for a while and that kind of kept me content for a while moving forward. But I think, yeah, I lost the kind of the urge or the will. I didn’t really have the capacity to run the Meetup that I used to be involved with.

And there were a couple of failed attempts to hand it over. Several people came in and said, oh, I’d like to have a go at running that. So it’s brilliant. So I kind of was like, here’s the keys, off you go. Even still had the Trello board and everything that we had.

And one tried and failed. I think another one did and I just kind of left it. So I assumed nothing really was happening on that. Until recently, it was last year I believe when some of the original team, a lady called Janice who was there at the very first pub round table with me, I think we’ve been to every Meetup ever since. She moved into retirement because she was a web developer and was like, don’t want to stop doing things. And she liked the community and she thought, right, well, if no one’s going to get this up again, I’ll do it again. And she was in the team at the end as well, so she’s already had the experience. She pulled together some of the others of the team. So still another couple of people, Michael and Rob who used to kind of be managing as well, they’re back in it as well and they started bringing it back to life.

And so I kind of saw this last year, the Meetups kind of started filtering through. And because I’m still connected to a lot of these people I found out, trying to remember how it came, it might, would’ve been something like LinkedIn or somewhere, or even emailed and that kind of came through. And it was like, oh, I need to go along to that one time, I really need to go along. And even one of my friends was talking, I was like, brilliant, I’ll go and see him, I’ve not seen him in ages. And then I had an operation that put me out of action for a while.

So that came in, so even when I was just about ready to go. And then finally, turn around to this year and then, yeah, another good friend of mine Ross Wintle, who is a developer, who I think a lot of people hopefully will know, he works doing stuff for ACF in particular, which is why I harass him all the time. But I’ve known him for ages. He was talking, I was like, right, I’ve got to go along because he’s talking. I’ve not seen him in six years, and it’s a great chance to see everyone. And I was so glad I did.

A lot of it, whilst it was smaller, it was still just a lot of the same people. So I think I kind of took in that seeing the people didn’t really appreciate the size but still it was kind of nice. It still felt the same. It was still the nice, friendly atmosphere which you get with WordPress. I think you get that across the board. Not just in Meetups, but devs talk to other devs which you don’t necessarily get in other industries. I would happily tell another dev, for what I would call a rival, inverted commas, company, how to do something if they were stuck, which you wouldn’t necessarily get in other industries.

And that filters through, for me, for the Meetup side. The atmosphere, it’s just very friendly and welcoming. And talking at it is a joy, because you will never get heckled. No one’s going to do that. Unless it’s a friend of yours and they’re teasing you, because you know them.

It’s just such a nice kind of crowd, and that’s where I started doing talks. And I don’t think I would’ve ever done a talk if it wasn’t in front of such a nice crowd and you knew you could kind of do what you wanted. You can make a mistake and no one’s going to pick you up on it. And then a lot of the time they were just interested to hear what you had to say. It was just, yeah, nice.

So I think I’ve already talked myself into doing a talk again. So there’s a good reason to go back. So got to think about that. Yeah, and then I said, well, I used to have a network of people, so how do I reach out to that network of people that I used to do and pull them in? Like, how do I go, right, okay, we are doing all right here but as always, looking for people to talk? So how do I reach out to those people?

And that’s kind of the next point is, the next thing that changed was the social network seemed to almost turn evil in places like Twitter, which used to be a nice go to, and you’d message everyone. Everyone kind of jumped ship because, for good reason. No one seemed to jump ship into the same boat, and everyone was doing their own thing and there was no confined next to step of where you get in touch. And that’s where I’m currently at is, six years down the line, what’s the way to kind of network now on the internet with these people and get in touch with those I may have lost touch with?

[00:16:34] Nathan Wrigley: That’s so interesting. I’m going to unpack a lot of what you said there. I’ve been making my little notes as you’ve been going along, but there’s a few things there.

So the first thing is that it’s curious you, for reasons that you’ve explained very well, you know, the family being the easy one to grasp. You know, you had a very, a different life out the other side of COVID. And so the constraints around that, and the possibilities of socialising were diminished regardless.

I didn’t have that, and so I did sort of just drop back into where I was before. But what’s curious is that clearly isn’t the pattern. You know, we hear about, not just in the WordPress space, but lots of sort of social enterprises, clubs and things that were going on all over this country, kind of lost their way. They couldn’t attract the people back.

So something happened, I think, to us during that period of time. I don’t know if we just became habituated to sitting in more and, you know, more accustomed to watching the telly. I don’t know if they’re ingrained into us somehow, was this fear of the outside world. That’s really overdramatising it, but hopefully you can grasp what I mean. You know, just this idea that outside, bad, inside, good.

[00:17:44] Simon: It was two years of being told to stay inside. And whether of not, that’s going to sink in isn’t? At some point, without even thinking.

[00:17:50] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. But then it just means that, when eventually the guardrails are pulled off, and obviously they weren’t just pulled off in one fell swoop. It was this sort of slow experimental phase, where you could be with a few people and then more people, and then that all got pulled back again, and then it all began again. Eventually, where we are now is you can do basically everything again. There’s no restrictions whatsoever.

But the community, the WordPress community in particular, I do wonder if we probably went into our screens a bit more than the typical person might do. Because, you know, we’re on our screens doing the work. Six o’clock maybe would’ve rolled by in the year 2018 and we would’ve closed the laptop, shut the computer down, and then done the other things. But then for a period of three or four years, we just carried on, on the screens and met on Zoom, or just carried on watching Netflix or whatever it may be. And then untangling all of that on the other side, proved hard, hard to do.

But then the bit that you just said, I’ve never thought about that. The social media, the shattering of social media where people have decided that this platform over there is not for them anymore. And, okay, I’m going to either discontinue using social media, or go to somewhere else and there really isn’t that, what do they call X? They used to call it the town square or something like that. And that’s a long time since that happened. But there’s now, there’s no replacement for that. There’s no one place you can go to. Everything’s shattered over multiple accounts. There’s no question there, but I don’t know if you wanted to respond to any of that.

[00:19:15] Simon: That’s where I am at the minute was I moved on, I tried different things and that’s randomly how I got the band notification was off one of those. But I can’t even remember now what platform that was. And I think I’ve closed the tab on my browser, and I’ve long since forgotten and not really gone back into it because it was a handful of people. And I spent a lot of time building up my Twitter following, and I just lost the urge to kind of do that all over again. And followed enough people for a while but then kind of lost the interest in that.

And, yeah, I don’t know, it’s weird. It’s just because there isn’t really anywhere that’s taken over that was, I mean Twitter was the key one for me. That was because I managed the account for the Meetup as well. So I could post on their behalf, but I could also kind of tie in and connect myself. I could retweet myself and retweet other people, and you could get those connections in place which is harder to do now.

That was my go-to, and then I don’t really know now, yeah, where to reach out. And even, one of the things raised at the Meetup I went to was, someone asked a question. It was like, well I’m not sure I can answer that for you immediately. We need to kind of sit down in front of a computer or something. But how do we communicate in between this and the next Meetup? How do we talk? What is the way to communicate now, that’s standard? You give out an email address or something that, I don’t know. Is that the way you communicate? I seemed very lost and almost forgotten how to socialise outside of actually being there in person. The in-betweens, which I’ve been doing for years and years, what’s the in-between way of talking?

[00:20:40] Nathan Wrigley: It’s strange that that’s a thing really, isn’t it? But it definitely is a thing. I suppose the piece of the jigsaw puzzle where it fits into this podcast is that if you are new to WordPress and you’ve never been to any of these events, and you’ve recently started going, a bit like you have done again. You go and you look at the event and you’ll think, okay, this is nice. Here’s the collection of people. But if you were to go pre 2019, so 2017, 2018 in particular, you were probably looking at the same event with, I don’t know, five times the number of people, 3, 4, 5, maybe even 10 times the number of people.

And so whatever that period was, whether it was COVID or a variety of other things, the numbers have dropped. And I think, whilst it’s not, I’m using air quotes at the moment, whilst it’s not necessary to have community for an open source CMS software project, certainly helps.

It helps that these people gather. It helps that they gain empathy. They sort of start to understand each other. It helps so that they feel a connection. You know, they’re going to join different teams because, oh, that person’s in that team and I know that person. It helps because it enables you to share knowledge and hopefully, instead of 10 people falling over the same problem, one person does, and shares their experience to the other nine. And yada, yada, yada. On it goes.

And it does trouble me that that component is now missing. It makes me think this isn’t good. And I don’t know what the answer is. I wish I had a magic wand that I could wave and bring it all back. Does it bother you? Do you feel that the community should still be important? Or can we just say, this is now where it is, just accept it. This is what we’ve got.

[00:22:26] Simon: Having dipped my toe back in properly into the community as it were, recently, it’s kind of reminiscing now what it was, and there’s still elements there of what it is and knowing people. It is almost networking. It’s kind of knowing those people, and someone knows someone. There’s a very kind of small world. Those relationships and people I used to speak to a lot that I didn’t so much, and it’s weird why that kind of stopped.

And I think, yeah, it’s definitely the kind of the sharing. And it’s particularly relevant I would say if you are a freelancer or work on your own or you are even part of a smaller team. But the networking helps you kind of expand out, and expand your team without it having to be in the company you’re working for. Because as I previously mentioned, the rare thing in the WordPress community is that a developer can speak to another developer about an issue for say, it might even be for a client, and they will work together to resolve it. Offering back is how it was, and I think it still is in some areas, which you wouldn’t say get in others. And I think that’s the community side of it that’s very different.

And I noticed that with the Meetup because I’ve been to other Meetups. We even did a collaboration Meetup as well. And the other ones I went to, it just didn’t feel the same kind of warmth. It felt very fixed. There was no kind of welcoming.

So the one thing that has always been relevant that the Bristol one, is we’ve got a welcoming team. So as soon as you step through the door there’s someone there. Get a little name badge as well. And if you’re new, they’ll ask a few questions and find out what you do. And what we always do is, oh, what do you do? Oh, I’m in project management. Ah, go and speak to so and so, they’re a project manager. Or, I’m looking for a developer. Or kind of find out what was their reasoning, and then direct them because we knew who was there.

That’s opposed to other ones where you go in and you almost kind of sign in and then you’re left to your own devices, and no one approaches you, and it just felt very kind of awkward. Whereas we would try and engage everybody, and we were lucky with the people who kind of organised it, with people like Janice who’s just a naturally approachable person and she will go out and talk to people. And we had that kind of mixture of people that, it just made it nice, and it was nice to go along. And you would go along for the people as much as you would for the talk itself.

I would go to talks which had absolutely no interest to me on paper, but I go along anyway because I wanted to see everybody. And then I ended up finding out that these talks were actually sometimes even more interesting when I thought they wouldn’t be any relevance to me. And it helps you kind of expand your kind of knowledge, and appreciate other elements, and other factors that you might not know about. Which in person is just a lot better and I think it’s more engaging as well. So you can kind of stare at a screen watching something. It isn’t quite as engaging as it is being in person.

And also, once you finish, it’s the debrief after that I really like. So when the talk is finished and everything’s wrapping up, you can go and speak to the talker and query something with them and go and speak to other people. And you kind of have that little social bit afterwards, and it’s all just nice and relaxed. And you don’t really get that on a video call because you can’t really go and mingle on a video call, because how do you go and talk to someone else. And it isn’t the same in person, it’s just a lot easier to kind of do that.

Yeah, how do you sell that for something that wasn’t there for a few years? It’s twofold. How do you bring in the people who used to come? And how do you introduce people who may have been born into never having that? The younger generation who lived through COVID, and didn’t really have that Meetup experience before it to know that this exists on the other side. And what would make it appeal to different kind of levels, really?

[00:25:43] Nathan Wrigley: So I’m not entirely sure, again, if we could rewind the clock. So this is going much, much further back. Let’s say the year 2003, something like that, when WordPress was really little. I don’t actually know the date of the first Meetup, but let’s imagine it was around there. And nobody had, in the WordPress community had ever thought to meet up.

If that just never had become a thing, I wonder how the project would’ve fared. I wonder if it would have been as successful. Because, you know, there were things like Skype and these platforms were coming along where you could do project management and things like that online. It feels like there was no, there would’ve been no inhibition to it being successful.

But I’m more or less willing to predict that it would not have been successful. I think the glue that binds the project together on some completely unquantifiable level is that community. And a certain proportion of that community in the past required the in-person meeting. You know, whether it be the WordCamp events, where they get on a plane or in a car and drive a long distance for a few days and lots of talks. Or whether it’s the more kind of informal monthly Meetup scenario, where it’s probably closer to home and a little bit quicker and one evening only, something like that.

I just have an intuition that the project wouldn’t have been successful. It was those people, and I think I’ve heard the word maven. Maven being this sort of description of somebody who is like a hyper connector. They’re really good at connecting the dots between people and saying, you should meet this person, and you should meet this person. A little bit how you described.

I think there’s some jigsaw puzzle of that going on. There’s some tapestry of these community members making it successful in a way we’ll never fully unpick. And now that that, in the year, so we’re recording this in March, 2026. Now that that seems to be somewhat in question, it then raises the question of, well, what does that mean for the future of the project as a whole?

My anticipation is that if we were to, let’s say nobody from this moment forward ever attended an event again, I think the project would not be as successful. There would be less development, there would be less interest in it. So I think it’s important that we do get these things back. But again, moving on to your point about how, that’s the tricky piece. You know, has life changed? Is the advent of everything online all the time, you know, so go back 10 years, there was no Netflix. Well, maybe there was, I don’t know. But the point is the entertainment that’s available through everybody’s TV now is so compelling, it’s kind of hard to fight against that.

But I don’t know how we get the young people in. I don’t know what it is about, you know, what the competition is. We’ve obviously got AI painted into the mix, and all of the interesting things going on there. So I don’t really, I’m not really pressing you for the answer.

[00:28:36] Simon: That’s fine. One of the reasons for joining is to kind of ask that question to the people listening and saying, has anyone else got that kind of magical wand and jigsaw missed piece? Has anyone got any ideas to kind of move forward with it? Because I say, I’m going to be looking, moving forward now, what I can do and how I can connect and get back in touch with people that I’ve not spoken to. I’ve already done it with a few people I hadn’t spoken to in a while. It’s like, oh, I’ve not spoken to you, oh, you’ve got a child as well. Oh, lovely. Those things you talk about which you just kind of left.

But yeah, I completely cut short on it and it’s just bizarre. But it is kind of coming back. It’s nice to know that whilst it’s quiet, it’s still there. It hasn’t died out, it’s just a little bit smaller than it was. But like you say, whether it can rebuild to where it was, or even partway to that is the query. I’d hope it can because I think it helps.

And the project itself, as you mentioned, WordPress wouldn’t exist without a community because it’s built by a community. It’s not built by a singular development company, and we wait for them to do it, you get involved. If you want to work with WordPress, you can do. There’s nothing stopping you getting involved. You can get in, you can be involved, you can be a tester, you can be a developer for it. There’s no like barrier to be involved in it, and it needs that community to keep it going. As you said, it wouldn’t probably have progressed to where it is without that community behind it.

And that community is still there in some context, but where are they in terms of, how can I to them and talk to them? Because there’s definitely people I want to reach out to again. And what’s the way to reach people these days? What’s the platform now? What’s the way to reach out to people? Where are people talking? Are they talking anymore? Or is it all just looking at TikTok? This is where I’m going to sound really old. Looking at like TikTok and just looking at short videos of things and that’s where. Or do people still communicate, and how? What’s the way to do that?

[00:30:20] Nathan Wrigley: I get what you’re saying by the way. I am of a certain age and things like, how do you even do TikTok? What even is that? I’m not entirely sure. But again, rewinding the clock, the website was the thing. That was the fulcrum of the internet really. It was, you know, suddenly you had this capacity to publish things online, and in order to do that, certainly prior to Facebook and MySpace and those platforms, you had your blog, you know, that was the way to do it.

You had to go through the process of setting it up. And the process of setting it up would pull back the curtain on, oh, so this is a bunch of files and a thing called a database. Right, okay. And that’s now on my computer, is it? Oh, right. And then that means I can mess up out with it. Oh, that’s interesting. And I can do this. And so this loop of curiosity gets created.

Whereas now, and again, this is where I’m going to sound old, the internet feels like a very different place. You know, you’ve got a billion platforms that you can just log into, no money down. There’s maybe some, you know, quid pro quo in terms of advertising or selling whatever it is that your attention can demand. And you can create your stuff over there, and it’s fine. And that platform has a reach of 3.6 billion people and yada yada, on you go.

So whether the incentives for younger people has changed because they just don’t see the need for having a website. Because that’s all been taken care of by these platforms that you log into. And, oh, just go over there, username, password, I’m all done. I think there’s something there.

[00:31:48] Simon: Yeah, I guess it’s the questions when you’re working on something. Because back in the day you would speak to someone, it would be someone’s response. If I had a question I would need someone to have answered that question on the internet. So developers will, of a certain age, will know Stack Overflow is kind of the go-to. That’s where we spent most of our time on the internet. You’d ask Stack overflow because you’d hope someone else had the same issue, and they responded or they’ve posted it, someone’s told them how to fix it or that kind of thing.

And I got to the point where even I started, I made it as a goal to hit a certain score on Stack Overflow. I was like, right, I’m going to hit a certain score, I’m going to respond, I’m going to answer questions, just because I want to feel like I’m giving back because it felt nice. I’d consumed so many answers from Stack Overflow, it felt rude not to give back. And the same thing for me I think with WordPress is I was consuming so much information I wanted to kind of give back, it was nice. And it made you feel, there was a nice thing in the community thing was, if I knew the answer to something and I could explain that to someone else and help them, it was a nice feeling, it was a nice thing to do.

It was like, I’ve learned this thing, and you are looking to do that thing, oh, I learned it, do it this way, this is how you do it. And that kind of helped me. So all of my Stack responses were WordPress. And it was nice to kind of respond to someone and them say, oh yeah, that’s great, and then several other people would like it. It was just a real nice, positive thing as well.

But now, again, there is a lot of reliance on AI coming forward, because it’s like, you ask AI and AI gives you the answer. And whilst AI consumes information from people, it doesn’t tell you who it consumed it from. So your answer is coming from the AI agent you are using, not from whoever’s actually come up with that answer. So you’ll get your responses, you don’t have to reach out to a person anymore so much as you did back in the day. And whether that’s a factor that the community isn’t needed because it’s being replaced. And you aren’t exposed to the community so you are not getting the answers through the community, you are getting it kind of channeled through an AI agent who’s consuming that.

So they’re doing all the stuff you used to do, and giving you the answers without you having gone into the community and found out that, oh, it was Joe Blogs who answered that question. And it might be that you reach out to them and say, actually, you knew this, do you know that? I’ve made connections through kind of these things as well, and if the answers are no longer attributed, and it’s like the AI agent is the one who’s responded, you don’t know who actually did that if that came through someone because it’s got this information.

[00:34:07] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it’s just the void provided the answer for you. Yeah, yeah.

[00:34:11] Simon: Exactly. And that’s the community’s kind of gone on that sense but, is that how people are kind of, that’s what they like or do people still enjoy asking others? I still like responding to others internally in my team. If one of my fellow devs has a question, I love to kind of speak, screen share, go and talk through together, because it’s a lot more kind of enjoyable than just asking the internet.

[00:34:32] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. So I wonder if that’s the bear bones of what we need to sort of aspire to. So it’s to realise that there’s a proclivity to, so, okay, rewind a bit. To realise that the community has taken a hit. There’s no question that’s happened. But also to realise that there isn’t a panacea for this. There’s no red pill that we can take which is going to fix it over time.

It’s to recognise that there’s value in these things. It may be that there has been a dwindling in the audience of these things, but also that little avatar that you just painted of the person who’s curious about the code, but also has a desire to hang out, for the multitude of reasons that that could be, you know, they want to just hang out because that’s a nice thing to do, or they want to do networking, or they want to just make connections that they can chat to when they’re not in the room. To recognise that those people are still out there, and maybe those numbers are smaller.

Whilst you were talking also, it sort of occurred to me that maybe we’re just in flux. You know, nobody’s writing on cuneiform tablets anymore. Nobody’s using a stylist to write on papyrus anymore. Things change, you know, over time. And it may be that this is just the new normal, this is what we now have. I’m not entirely sure. But I kind of long for halcyon days. I’m looking back to those sort of 2018s, 2019s and thinking that’s the bar I’d like to have set. Whether or not that’s possible, I’m not sure.

[00:35:59] Simon: Yeah. It leads to me onto the level up on the Meetup was the WordCamps where it was a big kind of weekend event. And I was lucky enough to be involved. So I was the speakers organiser for the WordCamp that was in Bristol in 2019. Ironically booked my boss before I joined a company just as one of the speakers, and someone we employed as well I booked in for that.

And that was just, yeah, it got so big that we could actually run an entire weekend of stuff. But because the Meetups are now going down in size, I see there is still the appetite. It seems in America and other kind of countries around, but would there still be the appetite in England specifically, where we’re both based, for there to be a WordCamp? Would there be enough to warrant one of those? Or would it have to be very scaled back? Because I remember back in the day, I’ve been to like the London ones and you’ve got multiple tracks. Even the Bristol one had two separate tracks running. But now would it be something a bit more stripped back? Would it just be one track and a small kind of event? What scale would it be? Would there still be the interest?

[00:36:56] Nathan Wrigley: And also, does it have to be kind of mixed up with other things? Like, does it have to be part entertainment, part information, part hallway? Because again, I just wonder if that’s the diet that we’ve created ourselves with. Our always on culture, where entertainment is so readily available, I do wonder if, you know, we’ve got to just acknowledge that those things are of importance.

If you want to attract an audience of people, you’ve got to have the social afterwards, you’ve got to have the band, the live entertainment, the bits in between, the, I don’t know what that is, but just some aspect of gimmicks to make these events fun. Not just, okay, let’s go to a talk, watch the talk and then all go home.

[00:37:36] Simon: Yeah. There was always, I mean the thing I liked with a lot of these was there was the kind of a developer day or, that often preceded so you could get involved a bit more for those who wanted to. So there were kind of certain things. There were the socials as well that was always key to some, and that was just a nice way to kind of unwind afterwards. Because a lot of the time people would be traveling, so you didn’t want to go to the event and then go back to the hotel room and sit on your own. You could stay out and chat.

And as mentioned before, the community is a lovely community. So it’s people you want to hang out with because they’re nice people to hang out with. They’re all really lovely. And I’ve met a lot of really nice people at Meetups, at WordCamps. Just afterwards in particular and just chatting, chat about anything because after a while you get bored talking about WordPress, you’ll chat about whatever you want.

I mean if I get talking about music then I’m away. But it’s just, you build those relationships. And there are connections that I’ve made back, six, seven years ago that I’m still in touch now and I’m reaching out again and going, we lost that touch in between. So I’m kind of reaching out again and just catching up with people. It’s just nice to know like, oh, you’re still in the industry. What are you doing? What’s happened to you? And that kind of just disappeared almost. There wasn’t a way to stay in touch in between.

[00:38:42] Nathan Wrigley: The sort of glib comment that I made at the beginning about the fact that if we were to switch on the cameras on this podcast, we’d be able to see that Simon has a guitar in his background.

[00:38:51] Simon: I’ve got more if you look further up.

[00:38:52] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, there’s many musical instruments there. But the point being though that there seems to be a, certainly from my perspective, doing these interviews on a, multiple a week. There’s a high correlation between musicians and WordPressers. And so I’m going to drop this bomb. Maybe that’s a channel for these events is to combine other things. Like combine cinema with a WordPress event. So, you know, there’s a track for watching films at the same time as there’s tracks for speakers, but there’s also live music over there. You know, I’m not suggesting we invite Coldplay or anything. But, you know, some local acts. Maybe some of the people that are involved in the event themselves, many of whom we know are musicians. It’s gimmicks again, but it’s fun.

[00:39:32] Simon: It’s a nice way, yeah, I mean it’s on our, so our band’s been going for a while and it’s still on our bucket list is to actually perform somewhere. We get together and rehearse and it’s one of my bucket list things is I would love to actually perform. Even if it’s just in a small pub in front of a handful of people and I know them all anyway, but just to kind of do that performance in front of things.

So that could be tied in. I wouldn’t be against kind of suggesting it to the rest of the guys and saying, there’s going to be this event and there’s all sorts of things taking place. There’ll be some technical talks or whatever and all these things. There’s also some music so we could perform. Definitely an idea. Yeah, like you said, there’s a lot of musicians around.

[00:40:07] Nathan Wrigley: Like a hybrid, arts meets technology kind of event.

[00:40:11] Simon: Yeah. There’s a lot of creativity. One of the best people I got speaking at the Bristol Meetup, bare in mind this is just a very small handful of people, a guy called Gavin Strange who works for Aardman. He is just amazing, and he’s done some brilliant speeches. I lucked out working with him on a community thing where we got together on a weekend and built websites in the space of a weekend. So thank God for WordPress, I basically built a site in, I don’t know, about five hours, we built a website from scratch.

He was working with us doing some animations and things and was such a positive, really great person. He works outside of work. He’s insane. He never stops. I reached out on a whim and said, do fancy doing a talk? And he goes, well, I don’t do WordPress. It doesn’t matter, it can be anything. And he came along and did a really good, positive, energetic talk. And that was my biggest coup was I got him to speak to us.

[00:40:57] Nathan Wrigley: And it was nothing to do with WordPress. Okay, that’s so interesting.

[00:41:00] Simon: Absolutely nothing. Nothing to do with WordPress. He just talked about, I can’t even remember, it’s a long time ago, but it was just interesting because it, just talking about what he does and a lot of kind of what he does outside of his working day and keeping busy and just.

[00:41:14] Nathan Wrigley: There’s a lot of overlap with soft skills and things, isn’t there? And to be honest with you, even just learning about the animation process and the tech, no doubt, involved in that. It’s kind of interesting. Okay. This is fascinating. This is going in an unexpected direction.

[00:41:27] Simon: That’s my thing now is maybe I can reach out to him again. And then through my other ways I’ve, I know someone who’s done a TED talk. That’s just probably a little level too much, but he’s a mountain biker. But I wonder, can I tie in that into somehow? And can I pull in that crowd that way? There’s all those kind of connections. It’s like, it doesn’t have to be. I think that’s the thing, we managed to get across that it doesn’t have to be WordPress. You can talk about anything if it relates to the internet, and then it might just aspire that that connects to a site that runs WordPress.

That’s how we kind of got a bigger crowd because we dabbled. We did do a technical focused one and it just, that was my thing. I really wanted to get techie and nerdy and it’s like, but you just cut down to too much of a niche and you’re cutting people out. It’s better to kind of have all sorts of things, and as I mentioned before, getting people to see a talk about something they might not think they’re interested in and realise actually it is very interesting and put across and try and get people in.

[00:42:17] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. I think that’s the perfect place to sort of draw a line under this one. So what we’re saying is that WordPress events, Meetups in particular, I think we’re talking about mainly, they’re definitely going through a state of flux. We don’t necessarily have the answer, but we’ve definitely floated what the problem is. And there’s a few towards the end there, interesting ideas of ways to possibly make it more engaging to people who’ve, I don’t know, just lost interest, or have never come across WordPress.

So, oh, that’s fascinating. I really enjoyed that. Simon, where do people find you? Where are, you mentioned earlier how the entire world of social networking has been shattered.

[00:42:53] Simon: That’s my issue. Yeah, well, I mean you can find me on illustrate.digital. I’ve got to give a slight plug out to the company I work for. We are a WordPress agency. We do loads of stuff for WordPress. At the minute I seem to be living on LinkedIn. I got addicted to a game on there, and then I kept kind of pulling back. That’s my kind of way to reach out at the minute so you can find me there. I think, yeah, otherwise I don’t really use the other socials. I am on Facebook, if you find me, good luck. But otherwise I think LinkedIn is the way to get me initially. But if you’ve got an example and say, ah, you should join this platform, do reach out and let me know, I’m happy to have a look.

[00:43:22] Nathan Wrigley: Thank you. I will make sure that anybody listening to this is able to find that. If you go to wptavern.com, search for the episode with Simon Pollard in, you’ll be able to probably scroll to the bottom of the show notes and there’ll be links to his LinkedIn.

So Simon Pollard, that was a really curious and interesting chat. Thank you for chatting to me today. I appreciate it.

[00:43:41] Simon: Thank you very much Nathan.

[00:00:00] Nathan Wrigley: Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.

Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress, the people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case a firsthand look at the CloudFest Hackathon.

If you’d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.

If you have a topic that you’d like us to feature on the podcast, I’m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you or your idea featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.

So on the podcast today, we have something different. Usually it’s me, Nathan Wrigley, chatting with a guest about something related to WordPress, whether that’s a plugin, Core updates, or perhaps an aspect of the WordPress community.

This time around, it’s me, and later on, a bunch of guests talking about an event. The event in question has already taken place, but the next iteration of it is just around the corner. And if you read the title of this episode, you’ll already know that I’m talking about CloudFest.

CloudFest is an unusual event. The most obvious indicator of this fact is that it takes place in Europa Park in Rust, Germany. It’s one of the world’s premier theme parks.

CloudFest is at its heart, a tech conference, but every year, just before the main CloudFest conference begins, a very different event takes place. It’s called the CloudFest Hackathon. So whilst the rollercoasters are testing the laws of physics outside, inside a group of developers, UX designers and system architects are testing the limits of the modern internet.

Dozens of the world’s most talented engineers strip away the corporate sales pitches and set themselves a variety of collaborative challenges to be completed in just three days. Now we see hackathons all the time. Usually they’re sponsored by a single company trying to get people to use their specific API, or their high pressure competitions, to build a disruptive startup in 48 hours. But the CloudFest Hackathon isn’t like this. It’s professional, it’s non-commercial, and its primary intention isn’t necessarily to build a product, it’s to maintain the ecosystem.

So let’s hear from somebody who knows all about the CloudFest Hackathon, and that person, is Carole Olinger.

[00:03:04] Carole Olinger: My name is Carole, and I am the head of CloudFest Hackathon. I’m very excited about my role here and to be able to connect so many awesome people and talent around the world.

So I think there are multiple definitions for a hackathon. In this case I would probably define it as a gathering of open source enthusiasts who are going to be working and coding and designing a lot of exciting projects together. They haven’t met before in many cases, and they are put in the same room for three days being fed, being caffeinated and trying to improve the open web.

[00:03:42] Nathan Wrigley: Who’s on the organizing team?

[00:03:44] Carole Olinger: So basically, I am leading the whole operation in my role for CloudFest and the World Hosting Days. And I have the most amazing supporting team around me that anyone could ever imagine. So it is Lucas Ratke from Automattic, Alain Schlesser from Yoast, and Thierry Muller from Google, who are on the project support team, and making sure that we have all these really valuable projects in our event. And that project leads are prepared in the best possible way.

And for the first time we also have a volunteer that is helping during the event. And is specifically helping me wrangling the 110 amazing sheep around me, and to make sure that there are accommodations are covered. That all the catering is being done. And that is a Simon Kraft from Group One.

[00:04:36] Nathan Wrigley: I show up to an event like this, all the jigsaw pieces are in place you think, oh, it just happens, but of course it doesn’t just happen. How long have you spent working on this event? How long have you been wrangling this whole thing into existence?

[00:04:49] Carole Olinger: Usually we start in September. And then it’s more okay, what are our objectives? What are our goals for this edition? We are really trying to take as much feedback as possible from previous year’s attendees, to make sure that we have improvements in place and new additions to the event for the following edition. So that happens in September. Creating the team, making sure that we have specific objectives and goals and those are manageable.

And then the actual work starts in October, and then becoming more and more intense over the upcoming months. And I would say January is probably the most crazy month. I barely slept.

[00:05:31] Nathan Wrigley: So the idea really is that you put. In this case, 10 projects in a room. You’ve got 10 project leads and, in some cases there’s multiple people leading a project. And then you add into that mix over a hundred people, many of whom appear to be developers, and you stir that pot up a bit, and hope that things come out the end that are useful, that have been enjoyable to work on.

How do you decide what the 10, in this case, projects were? And are you oversubscribed with people wishing to be a part of it? And so how do you decide what makes it? How do you decide which projects are interesting to CloudFest Hackathon each year?

[00:06:10] Carole Olinger: So this has been evolving over the years. So I remember additions, three or four years ago, or previous to the pandemic. Where our project team was pulling projects out of the different CMS communities, open source project communities. So we had ideas about what we wanted to tackle, and some projects came out of the communities. So we were like hunting ideas, and also planting ideas inside communities.

This year is the first year where we didn’t have to do any of that. We had 22 pitches from different CMS communities and other open source projects that were pitching their ideas to us. So it was like a kind of a hard choice to determine which ones are going to make it.

So usually we are trying to take into consideration what the theme of the main event CloudFest is, and obviously as everyone is excited about AI these days, that is something we wanted to cover. So we made sure we had some projects that had AI involvement. And then what is really important to my heart, and to the team’s heart, is that we are having cross CMS collaborations.

So we are trying to have WordPress people here, which is obviously the community that I am mostly connected with. But also TYPO3. TYPO3 is one of our, the W3 Association is one of our top level sponsors. We since years we have Joomla people, Drupal people joining us. We are trying to find a good mix to empower those cross CMS collaborations and also cross-project collaborations. So even within one platform, just to name WordPress as an example, we try to make sure that we have projects that could eventually benefit from each other.

[00:07:54] Nathan Wrigley: I’m guessing also, there’s a component of trying to work out projects that if you put a hundred people in a room, there’s not a hundred replicas of the same person. Each of them are different. That there are 10 different places where they can land. Because one thing that I didn’t realize and was really curious to me, is when the Hackathon started, apart from the project leads, nobody’s assigned a place to go. They listen to a little speech at the beginning. It’s like a promotional thing. Two minutes, this is what we want to do, the pitch. And then the people make a decision. And for 10 minutes or something, there’s this sort of chaotic moving of people around, and then it all settles down.

So presumably you have a wide array of project pitches, so that those a hundred plus people can decide, they’re not all surrounding the one table and there’s a table over there that’s empty, I guess that fits in the jigsaw as well.

[00:08:44] Carole Olinger: So we are taking very much care about the selection process of applicants. So when we know what our projects are going to look like, we are trying to match their needs in terms of skills that attendees are going to present to us during their application.

So usually we have between 300 and 400 applications for the Hackathon, and we have 110 slots. But, and this is important to understand, our partners are bringing team members within these 110 attendees. And our partners this year have been super actively involved, which I love. So they were not only giving us money to make this event possible, to be able to invite open source contributors to this place, including their hotel, accommodation and food. They were bringing, people resources. I hate the term, but you know what I mean. So they were sending their crew to lead, to participate in these open source ideas and projects. So in the end we had 60 available spots for open source contributors. And then we made sure that we are matching the skills that they were sharing with us in their applications with the needs that the projects will have on the table.

So we have a pretty good understanding already about who’s going to be at what table. And obviously we are monitoring that. So we give them some time to make the decisions. And if we see that there are skills missing at a certain table, or if there’s another table that is going to be too full and too complicated to manage by the project lead, we are kindly convincing, and reassigning people, to participate in different projects.

[00:10:19] Nathan Wrigley: So that’s interesting. So it’s not just a free for all? The idea is to maximize the output of the projects, the 10 different projects at the end, and you will, like you said, politely, ask people to move over if you believe that the thing that they have said that they’re good at, is, matching. And there’s a, I don’t know, a hole in one particular project.

That brings me to this question then. Is the intention that these projects have a life after this event has finished? Or is it just a case of, okay, we’ve all had a nice time, the event has closed, let’s all move on with our lives.

[00:10:48] Carole Olinger: This is becoming more and more important to us. As I said earlier, we are trying to improve something every year like, like focusing on something when we are fixing our goals that we can do better every year. And what we can definitely do better is spreading the word about what amazing achievements the teams have been building during the event, and make sure that this project’s become more sustainable. So that the world knows that there’s potential in the outcomes of CloudFest Hackathon project, and to potentially unlock support and resources for these projects to continue.

I would love to spread the word, making it possible to unlock these resources. And then also inside our team, building more and more resources to follow up with this project leads from our end.

[00:11:33] Nathan Wrigley: There’s an element of, how to describe it? There’s this time pressure in the whole event. So that the thing is basically three days long, from inception until final judging, three days. So the pressure is on, and I can feel at the moment the pressure is increasing slightly. You can sense that people are getting quite into the project they’re working on.

I noticed last night, long after the event had officially closed down, there was quite a lot of people still sitting there. They’re were obviously wedded to what they’re doing. There is this sort of like Shark Tank element where there’s going to be a judgment at the end and somebody’s going to win.

How does that work? Who gets to decide who’s the winner?

[00:12:06] Carole Olinger: So we do have a jury, and the jury is composed of representatives of our top tier partners. And they send one representative to the jury. Then we do have one representatives from the Groundbreaker Talents charity project. Because, on a side note, all these awards are being sponsored by companies, and everything that we are collecting in terms of sponsorships is going to the Groundbreak Talents initiative. And then we have the project support team, and myself being on the juries. And it’s an uneven number. So we have nine people, which is always good to have on a jury. And after the presentation of results on the last day of the hackathon, the jury is going to deliberate.

And then we are going to listen to the project support team, who has been working the room and connecting with the project tables during the three days in terms of technical achievements, challenges they have seen. So they’re going to give us some impression on that. And that is mostly important for the Tech Visionary Award. And then, all of us have had the chance to obviously see the presentations, which is important for the Pitch Perfect Award. Who has the most appealing presentation of results? We do have the Social Media Master Award, that is fully being tracked.

So Simon and I, we are going to give the jury some insights on who has created the most boss on social media. . And, then we do have the Breaking Barriers Award, which is a new one. So this is about using inclusive technologies, and getting some outputs that are going to be helpful for a diverse set of users, and connecting people on the user base, but also how the people have been working together in terms of having diverse skills and perspectives on the table.

So these are some of the awards, and there’s going to be an overall winner. We have five categories, and an overall winner. And the overall winner is, the one that has the most points.

Thanks to Carole for that comprehensive introduction to the CloudFest Hackathon. Now, let’s look at the why. Why do people travel from 30 plus different countries around the world to do all of this?

In our industry, we talk a lot about the cloud, but we often forget that the cloud is just a massive collection of interconnected open source projects. You have WordPress powering 40 plus percent of the web, you have the Linux kernel, you’ve got PHP and Python communities, and then you have the hosting providers and hardware manufacturers. Normally, these groups live in silos. They communicate via GitHub issues or formal API documentation. Well, the intention of the hackathon is to create what might be called the human API. It’s about taking a person who might maintain a security plugin, and sitting them at the same table as an engineer who manages millions of servers for a global host.

When you remove the barrier of the screen, the friction of the internet disappears. Problems that have been sitting in a backlog for six months get solved over a coffee, or a shared meal because the right people are finally in the same physical space.

Although, as Carole mentioned, there is a winner, this isn’t really about winning a prize. In fact, the prizes are almost secondary to the real goal, which is contributing back to open source projects, some of which already exist, some of which are new. The intention is all free and open source software or FOSS for short.

These contributors aren’t there to build something proprietary and closed. They’re there to ensure the plumbing of the internet stays robust, secure, and interoperable. Oh, and to have some fun collaborating at the same time.

Speaking of contributors, let’s hear from some of them now and get a little taste of what their project was all about.

The room as you will hear was a little noisy.

[00:15:52] Javier Casares: I am Javier Casares and I am one of the co-leads from for the CMS Cloud Manager Project.

[00:15:58] Nathan Wrigley: What does this project hope to achieve?

[00:16:00] Javier Casares: Usually when you have a cPanel or Plesk or some kind of panel, you can install a WordPress, for example, with one click, but the server is not configured.

So in this project, we want to configure not only the CMS, but also the server where the CMS is going to be

[00:16:20] Nathan Wrigley: And how’s it going so far?

[00:16:22] Javier Casares: It’s fine. We have the public part because we want to have a website so you can configure things and prepare everything. And then we have this software, the real software that creates everything. And more or less it’s, fine, at this moment. So I think we can achieve everything for the hackathon, for the finals.

[00:16:46] Mattias Pfefferle: I’m Mathias. I am working on Activity Pub and the Fediverse.

[00:16:51] Nathan Wrigley: And what’s the project that you’re working on at CloudFest, the Hackathon?

[00:16:55] Mattias Pfefferle: We are working on federated events. So it’s very much a special case of the Fediverse.

[00:17:02] Nathan Wrigley: And what is the intention of the project? What are you hoping to get out of it?

[00:17:05] Mattias Pfefferle: We try to build a decentralized, alternative to the big social networks around events, so that people does not have to rely on something they do not have control over. So we would hope to get an alternative to meetup.com, maybe, or any other big closed proprietary social network, around events.

[00:17:29] Nathan Wrigley: And how’s it going so far?

[00:17:30] Mattias Pfefferle: It’s mixed, because even if it’s a standard, there are different variations of using the standard. So we filed a lot of bug reports, and tried to work on a standard that better describes the standard , if that makes sense? And we’re trying to make federation happen using WordPress and some other platforms that are built by people that are part of the Hackathon team.

[00:17:58] Milana Cap: My name is Milana Cap, and I’m on a project WPCLI as MCP. MCP stands for Milana Cap pro. No, it doesn’t

[00:18:09] Nathan Wrigley: What is the intention of this project then?

[00:18:11] Milana Cap: We are introducing AI into WPCLI. So, you could use AI in different aspects of WordPress, like content creation and all of that. But it was missing in development process, especially in local instances. So now we have that, and it’s actually a lot of fun. Much more fun than I thought.

[00:18:32] Nathan Wrigley: And how’s it going so far?

[00:18:34] Milana Cap: So far we build a spam machine, and that’s official name. And we actually had a MVP on first day. It’s really fun. Yeah. And we are just learning how this AI is behaving by itself in our locals.

[00:18:52] Patricia BT: Hello, Nathan. I’m Patricia BT. I’m living in Geneva, Switzerland. I speak French, and I am my own boss, . And I came, with that pitch, as a project for the Hackathon because for me it’s very important to own your data and preserve what exists on the web, and not lose anything.

[00:19:11] Nathan Wrigley: And what’s the name of your project?

[00:19:13] Patricia BT: CMS Freedom.

[00:19:14] Nathan Wrigley: And how’s it going so far?

[00:19:16] Patricia BT: It’s going very well. We have, tech people here, engineer, who are doing amazing work with, especially LLMs. So we are using AI to grab any HTML content and discover the format, the elements, and then later be able to import that into WordPress block theme.

For now it’s WordPress block theme and content. And later the hope is that people from other CMSs, other system, can just modify that last bit and import what the tool extracts, and import to their own system. So we can move from any HTML, render any page on the web and create that for your CMS.

[00:19:59] Nemanja Cimbaljevic: Hi, I am Nemanja. I come from Serbia and currently I’m with GoDaddy as a software engineer.

[00:20:05] Nathan Wrigley: And what’s the name of your project?

[00:20:07] Nemanja Cimbaljevic: I will not break my tongue. We will call it AI Accessibility Content Updater.

[00:20:12] Nathan Wrigley: And what is the intention? What are you hoping to achieve over these three days?

[00:20:16] Nemanja Cimbaljevic: We will try to make a proof of concept that will allow us to move on in the future where the AI is capable to help with accessibility of the websites that can be improved? Not all of them.

[00:20:29] Nathan Wrigley: Are there any constraints around what it is that you are hoping to be able to do? Or is it literally all the accessibility?

[00:20:35] Nemanja Cimbaljevic: It’s all about accessibility, and yes, we will see where we will go. It was announced as a trial and error. So we will see if there is any trial or just error.

[00:20:48] Anne-Mieke Bovelett: Hi, I’m Anne Bovelett.

[00:20:50] Nathan Wrigley: And what’s the name of the project you’ve got at CloudFest Hackathon?

[00:20:54] Anne-Mieke Bovelett: It’s called Accessible Infographics.

[00:20:56] Nathan Wrigley: And what is the intention? What are you hoping to achieve in these three days?

[00:21:01] Anne-Mieke Bovelett: Right now we’re creating a plugin for WordPress. . And when you have infographics on your site because you produce medicine, or machines, or you have statistics on your site. You can use our WordPress block, and upload an image through that, and then it will help you to make it accessible by creating extra information under the hood.

And the best thing of this is it’s not just going to be for WordPress, because we’re conceptualizing that for others so they can easily recreate this in other open source CMSs. And it will save millions and millions of people from sitting in the dark with very important information on websites.

What it actually means is that, also when we manage to move on with this project in the next phase, we’re gonna try and do this in bulk. To do it backwards for companies that already have a lot of infographics on their website, and understand that they have to do it either by law, or because they’re smart and want higher converting web shops, for example.

And then the possibility will come that they can do that backwards in bulk, and it will save them thousands and thousands in money that they have to invest in making this happen.

[00:22:20] Wesley Stessens: Yes. My name is Wesley Stessens, and I’m from Belgium, and we work on the Peer-to-peer Federated RAG Framework with, our team.

[00:22:30] Nathan Wrigley: And can I ask, what is the intention of that project over the three days? What are you hoping to achieve?

[00:22:35] Wesley Stessens: We are hoping to achieve something that hasn’t been done before in the, in the RAG space.

So basically RAG, or Retrieval Augmented Generation is way how you can augment an LLM and AI with extra data. And we want to allow everyone to create their own databases. And anyone can just join our network with their own knowledge.

For example, someone who knows a lot about beers, they can join our network and have like a library full of all information about very specific niche beers, maybe beers they brew themselves or whatever. And then any other node in the network can ask a specific question. And then our purpose is to route that question to the best matching node in a decentralized way. So there’s no servers or big companies. In between everything is done in a peer to peer way. So they get back the best matching documents from other people’s libraries, so to speak.

And then we use that to ask an LLM, or an AI a question with the context that we got from other people’s databases that matched best. And now we show the results to the user, or we create like a chat interface maybe around that. That’s the end result that we hope to achieve.

[00:23:49] Tadas Pukas: I’m Tadas.

[00:23:50] Nathan Wrigley: And what is the name of the project?

[00:23:52] Tadas Pukas: It’s WordPress Staging Environment Manager. It’s a bit complex to understand, but it does very simple thing.

[00:23:59] Nathan Wrigley: And what’s the intention at the end of these three days? What would you ideally like to be shipping? Have finished?

[00:24:05] Tadas Pukas: Yeah, so we want to have open source plugin, and actually we have it almost, so it’s the final touches.

And this will be distributed. It’s already in the public GitHub repo. So people will be able to download zip file, install a plugin, and create staging environments. Not only create but sync changes from staging to live. Actually, our name of the plugin is Staging to Live, so it’s, yeah, almost done.

Almost ready.

[00:24:29] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. I hope that you enjoyed this different style of podcast. Hopefully you learned something about CloudFest and the CloudFest Hackathon.

You certainly got to hear from a wide variety of contributors, and got to peel back the curtain about what a hackathon is, and the different projects people work on. There’s a great energy at events like this, and maybe this will convince you to explore hackathons in the future.

You don’t need to be a coder. Each project needs a wide array of talents from coders to marketers, designers, to project wranglers.

Like I said, at the top of the show, CloudFest 2026 is just around the corner. There’s an annual event both in the US and the one discussed here in Germany.

If you’re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast.

And we’ll be back next week with more from CloudFest and the CloudFest Hackathon.

[00:00:19] Nathan Wrigley: Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.

Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case the future of theme development.

If you’d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.

If you have a topic that you’d like us to feature on the podcast, I’m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.

So on the podcast today, we have Rob Ruiz. Rob has been involved in the WordPress ecosystem since around 2010. He began as a designer, but over the years WordPress has helped him transition into a developer, software engineer, and now an architect. Currently, he’s working full-time at an agency whilst taking on side projects independently.

The main topic for today’s conversation, centers around themes, a subject that hasn’t been covered in depth on the podcast for quite some time. You see, Rob is the current custodian of WP Rig, a free and open source toolkit for WordPress theme development. WP Rig offers a modern, minimal, and best practice driven starting point for developers who want to build custom themes. Providing tools like Composer and Node integration to streamline workflows, enforce coding standards, and enable the use of future facing CSS features, right now.

We start the episode with Rob sharing what attracted him to WP Rig, and his journey from user to Project Maintainer. We talk about who WP Rig is for, from experienced developers, to those just starting to dip their toes into theme building and code customization.

The discussion moves on to talking about what a theme development framework actually is, and why this approach might suit people wanting more control, and education, in their WordPress journey. Rob describes the learning curve, the workflow, and the satisfaction of creating your own theme from scratch, while highlighting tools and guardrails built into WP RIG that make professional standards and best practices accessible to all.

We also get into how WP Rig fits into the changing WordPress ecosystem. With the advent of full site editing and block-based themes, Rob explains how WP Rig has evolved to stay relevant, supporting classic, hybrid, and block-based paradigms, even enabling block development at the theme level.

Towards the end, we discuss the community behind WP Rig, how you can get involved, and the many educational resources available for those who want to learn theme development, or even become contributors themselves.

If you’re interested in building custom WordPress themes, want to understand the nuts and bolts of theme frameworks, or are simply looking for a modern and educational starting point for WordPress tinkering, this episode is for you.

If you’re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you’ll find all the other episodes as well.

And so without further delay, I bring you, Rob Ruiz.

I am joined on the podcast by Rob Ruiz. Hello, Rob.

[00:03:56] Rob Ruiz: Hi. How are you, Nathan?

[00:03:57] Nathan Wrigley: Rob’s joining me today to talk primarily about themes, which I confess is a subject that we haven’t touched in a good long while. So before we get into that, Rob, would you just mind spending a minute just letting the listeners know who you are? If we are on a WordPress podcast, probably better to align that with what your journey is in the WordPress space, if that’s okay.

[00:04:17] Rob Ruiz: Certainly. Yeah. So my name is Rob Ruiz. I’ve been leveraging WordPress since about 2010 ish, although my web development experience goes prior to that. And so I’ve been tinkering and getting more and more into it as I go along.

I started off as mostly a designer back in the early two thousands, I guess. And WordPress has facilitated my journey from being a designer to more of a developer, software engineer, today, architect. And so yeah, it’s been a very fun journey. I’ve learned so much over the years, so I’m very grateful to WordPress for helping me do that at my own pace.

[00:04:58] Nathan Wrigley: Do you work for yourself? Are you perhaps engaged in an agency or something like that?

[00:05:02] Rob Ruiz: So currently, right now I work full-time at an agency, but I do also do work for myself as well. So it’s kind of a hybrid situation.

[00:05:09] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, so the reason that Rob is on the podcast today, well, there’s a variety of reasons. Most of it will bind itself to the subject of themes, as I said right at the start. But we’re also going to be talking, maybe towards the end a little bit about AI and things like that.

However, Rob is now the custodian. I didn’t realise he was now the custodian. We’ll get into that in a minute. But Rob is the custodian at the moment of a project called WP Rig. And you can find this, it’s a really quick URL to type in, it’s WP Rig, so WPRIG .io.

Completely free to download, completely unencumbered by a pricing page or anything like that. There’s a GitHub repo I think. Yes, that’s right. So do you just want to give us the elevator pitch for what WP Rig is. And just because it makes me happy, can you tell us how you got involved? Because that’s lovely too.

[00:06:00] Rob Ruiz: Yeah. Yeah, for sure. So WP Rig is a theme development toolkit or framework, but it’s also a starter theme as well. So you could think of it as kind of like underscores but with a whole modern development toolkit situation built into it, meaning there’s a bunch of composer dependencies, Node dependencies, and other kind of developer tools baked into it to prepare developers for the best developer experience possible when developing themes for WordPress.

How I got involved with it essentially is I was, first off, I was looking for a theme development framework. I had gone on a journey to explore many. And during that journey, I came across WP Rig, and kind of fell in love with it. It was really, really cool. I liked it a lot. I liked a lot of the opinions. I liked how well aligned it was with Core WordPress itself. I like the WordPress best practices that it enforces, you know, automatically. You don’t even have to like go look them up and think about it. You could just run a tool that’s built into it and it’ll check all your code for said best practices.

And so that was very interesting to me. I was like, I’m going to start using this. And so I did. I did start using it. And then, shortly thereafter, I had been browsing my favorite WordPress news site, WP Tavern, and noticed an interesting article about the project that I had just recently fell in love with out of sheer coincidence, I suppose. Out of sheer coincidence, it just so happens this project is now looking for new maintainers, and that they were having a Zoom call in the near future where anybody interested in maintaining the project could join the Zoom call.

And so I did. I joined the Zoom call and I got to meet the previous maintainers, or maintainer rather, and ended up having ongoing conversations with him after the call. And one thing led to another, and now the project is basically managed solely by me with a handful of other light contributors.

[00:08:04] Nathan Wrigley: So that’s really nice. I love the fact that there’s some sort of combination of WP Tavern and WP Rig out there. That’s lovely. So I appreciate that. The audience for this podcast is pretty varied. So there’ll be developers with a longstanding history with WordPress, you know, deep in the code. Will go to WP Rig and immediately everything will connect, and they’ll be like, yep, I get this. I understand what this is. It’s for me. It’s not for me, yada, yada.

However, we also have quite a lot of people listening to this who are brand new to WordPress. They’ve got no experience with code. They may be living inside of a page builder or something like that where everything is point, click, drag, drop, save, that kind of an environment. It just occurred to me that they very well might not know what even a theme development framework is. So can we begin there? What is the point of a thing like this? What’s the problem you’re trying to solve? Let’s start there.

[00:08:53] Rob Ruiz: Yeah, that’s a great question. So like anything in WordPress, because it’s open source and so beautifully designed, might I add, from an architectural standpoint, there are lots of ways to extend WordPress beyond its base functionality.

Two of the most common ways to do this is via the plugin system, and via the theme system. And so we can add custom plugins to extend the functionality of WordPress, but we can also add custom themes to alter the way our website looks and feels aesthetically.

So if you’re somebody who’s more of a designer maybe, or you appreciate aesthetics and perhaps you’ve dabbled in some CSS, you might be more inclined, if you’re looking to go beyond just what Core WordPress provides to you in terms of a site building experience, I would encourage those people to look at themes and possibly creating your own custom theme. Or altering an existing theme using a concept called child theming where you can take any theme that you get from anywhere, whether you buy it or find it on the wordpress.org theme repository. You can extend themes using child themes, or you can just build your own themes from scratch.

So that does include some work outside of the WordPress admin area. So once you get into developing themes for WordPress, the concept here is you’re kind of straying away from the WordPress admin experience, and you’re now like in the code editor realm, right? Because under the hood, WordPress is all just a bunch of code, PHP, JavaScript, CSS. There’s a lot going on, the React now. There’s a lot of things kind of built into WordPress.

And so the beautiful thing about WordPress is that you can kind of, if you’re interested in learning how to develop, you can kind of dip your toes into the development pool as frequently as possible, as quickly as you want. Whatever you are comfortable with, you can kind of pace yourself there and say, okay, let me try and make a custom theme, or let me try to make a custom plugin. And if it doesn’t work out, it’s easy to just deactivate it, delete it, remove it, whatever. It’s a great way to learn how to develop, in my personal opinion, because a lot of the heavy lifting is done by the Core WordPress system.

Basically what WP Rig offers is, instead of having to create a file system, a theme system from scratch, you know, a lot of people will reach for a concept called a boilerplate. Something that will scaffold kind of like the common files and folders that would be necessary in a theme, and then allow you to work from there. So you’re not just starting from like ground zero, create a new directory, create a new file.

And so that’s kind of what WP Rig offers is like, okay, go to our GitHub repo, clone the GitHub repo down, and then there are directions in the repo on how to get it to scaffold all the tools that come with it, all of the Node and Composer tools. And then you’re kind of off to the races.

[00:11:46] Nathan Wrigley: So with WP Rig, I’m guessing we would describe this as a framework or something like that. The idea being that you can bring this, kind of learn how it works, become adept at it, and then it’s like your constant friend. It’s always in the background. It’s the thing that you can rely on. It’s the muscle memory which develops over time. So you can ship your own themes, which kind of depend on the framework, but also, you know, you’re familiar with it so that bit is taken care of and straightforward.

What is it that attracted you to this particular theme development framework, at the time when you were sort of scrambling around looking for a project to become involved with?

I mean, one of the things that I always found curious was the leaner, the better. You know, the less that there was in such a thing, the more I was drawn towards it, because it gave me a, the basis, the scaffolding basically from which I could start building. Now, I don’t know if that’s what drew you here. So there’s the question. What is it that you thought was superior for want of a better word about this one?

[00:12:41] Rob Ruiz: Well, you nailed it. It’s really that. Like, it is quite minimal at its core. I also really appreciated how it treated CSS, as somebody who comes from a design background. I love modern CSS. I love following CSS influencers on YouTube, and learning all the new tricks. It’s a lot to keep up with and as, now that Internet Explorer is gone, CSS is progressing at an enormous rate, which I’m very excited about. But it also forces you to keep in tune with what you can do with it and what you shouldn’t do with it. And so there are tools built into WP Rig to help you assess those things as you’re developing your CSS in there.

When I originally was brought onto it, we were using a tool called PostCSS. That would essentially allow you to use future CSS before it was adopted by all modern browsers. And during the compilation process, it would convert your future CSS to today CSS essentially. And so the idea there is that as CSS catches up, your compilation would just have to do less work, right? So when it compiles all your CSS, it would, you know, like now that nesting is a thing, right? I was using WP Rig before CSS nesting was supported by all modern browsers, but I was able still to use CSS nesting in WP Rig, which I really liked. So there’s that aspect of things

and yes, it is very light. I’ve used other theme development frameworks where they encourage you to use kind of like a templating language or framework. I didn’t really like that approach because it felt very foreign to WordPress. Nothing else in WordPress uses such a thing. That kind of turned me off a little bit because I was like, I don’t want to learn this whole other concept that like really doesn’t exist anywhere except for Laravel. I liked that about it. It kept it simple in that regard.

And then if you’re using WordPress at like a agency level, if you’re building bespoke custom sites for clients, something like WP Rig is extremely powerful because it allows you to increase your level of customisation as much as you want, and the tools are all there to help you handle that. Also, meanwhile, if you’re working on a team of developers, which is often the case if you’re working with an agency or something like that, WP Rig becomes kind of like a home base, if you will, for opinions, for coding practices, for checks and balances.

All these things, it helps put everybody on the same vehicle, I guess, if you want to think of it like that. Everybody’s using the same vehicle, so there’s not wildly different ways of doing things, which can be very, very handy when working on a team and assessing other people’s code, and perhaps taking over work for other people and so on and so forth.

[00:15:23] Nathan Wrigley: So the thing about frameworks, I guess, is that, if you are in the WordPress space and you are that page builder user, so everything is within the WP admin, you know, you download a plugin, which creates pages or a theme, I guess you could do the same thing, but you’ve got that kind of experience with WordPress. Is this something that would map to those kind of users perfectly, or is there more of a learning curve? Do you need to be leaning more into the developer side of things?

Maybe there’s a happy transition that can be made. Because, you know, when you’re on the website, you have interesting acronyms. So, you know, CSS, JS, we’re probably entirely familiar with those, but then we get into things like esbuild, Lightning CSS, ESLint, NPM, Composer and so on. And at this point I can imagine quite a few of the inexperienced users thinking, you know what, this is going to be tough for me.

So I just want you to give us an impression, reassure people. How hard is it to go from that, I’ve never done anything like this before. To up and running, becoming familiar, if not necessarily completely familiar in a heartbeat?

[00:16:25] Rob Ruiz: In my opinion, it’s not hard because you can kind of just focus on where you want to focus. And so for instance, if you’re only interested in writing CSS styles and you just want to change colors, and sizing, and fonts, and stuff like that, you could use WP Rig to make an extremely simple theme, which is what I would encourage people to do if they’re just getting up and running.

Back to your question about page builders and such, there is like this, I don’t want to call it a problem, but there is a paradigm in WordPress that I think, especially for newer WordPress developers, they need to be very aware of, which is that you kind of have two schools of thought.

You have this school of thought of like, okay, I want to just use the WordPress admin to customise every little bit, every little piece of my WordPress site. I should be able to do it in the WordPress admin. And so that’s where some of these more complex page builders kind of come in and provide a lot more control than just what Core WordPress provides you.

But with that said, it will never be ultimate control. It will never be ultimate control, because there’s always going to be some amount of constraints. You’re always going to be constrained by what configurations, what settings, what fields, what controls that page builder provides you.

And not only that, you have to keep in mind some of these rules, I like to think of them as rules, configurations, settings, whether it’s at the block level, widget level, element level, whatever word you want to use to describe a part of your page, like an object or a component, it’s a very common word. When you’re using a page builder, that’s all getting saved into the database. Anytime you enter a value, you click save or whatever. Everything is in the database, all of it, right?

And so if you need to make a global change across your whole site, let’s say you want all of the blocks on your website to all of a sudden have a border around them, or you want to change something about them, the colour, background colour, something like that. In a page builder world, you’re going to have to go into every single one of those elements, those blocks, whatever, and you’re going to have to change those values everywhere.

Where, when you’re doing things with just code, you have kind of superpowers. In my opinion, coding, if you want ultimate control over your site and you want to be able to do literally anything you can imagine, and be able to do it in a way that’s progressive and is comprehensive, without any barriers, without any limitations, code will always be the best way to exercise that control that you’re going after.

Now, obviously, newer people, too much control can lead to confusion and all this stuff. So I don’t fault people for using some of these other solutions like page builders to kind of get their feet wet and get up and going and kind of figure out how to use just WordPress itself.

But once you get to a point where you’ve been doing that for a while and you’re looking at like other websites that aren’t even WordPress that have all kinds of interesting, cool features built into them, new paradigms being presented and exposed. Let’s say you follow CSS and you’re looking at all the newest CSS features that are coming out. Many of those newest CSS features that are coming out, there’s really no ability to control those things in your WordPress site, because that stuff literally just got adopted by Chrome or whatever, just reached modern browser adoption like recently, right?

And so you have to kind of wait for the page builders, for WordPress to kind of now provide you new controls, new tools, so that you can then control those things. But when you’re doing things with code, you could just do it immediately, and you could do whatever you want.

So when you’re building your own theme from scratch or you’re trying to, even creating your own plugin from scratch, it’s never really going to be a concept that’s for like new WordPress people that are just very, very new to just developing websites in general. But it is nice to know that these tools are out there and they’re there, so that when you do get to a point where you’re ready to kind of spread your wings a little bit more, you know what tools are out there to reach for. And you can begin to play with them a little bit instead of forever feeling confined to one paradigm.

[00:20:40] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, there is something exceedingly satisfying about understanding how, whatever the thing is works. I imagine that as a child, you were perhaps that child that took things apart and enjoyed the experience of looking at the insides and thinking, how did that work? Okay, that’s how it worked. Okay, that cogs connected to that thing, and then that spins around in that way. And, oh, and look that on the front spins around as well. Got it. I understand that now. And you reassemble it and what have you.

I think there is something exceedingly interesting about that in the WordPress space. Obviously, WordPress, CMS, incredibly powerful out of the box. You’ve got the WP admin, and perhaps that’s as far as you wish to go.

But peeling back the layers and understanding, how is a page constructed? Where does the CSS get called from? How is the HTML finally output? What are the bits and pieces that make it up? How does the theme layer do its bits and pieces? You don’t have to kind of understand it all in one hit. You can, with a framework, the likes of which we’re talking about, WP Rig, there is this capacity to just take little nibbles and have a slow, but realising appreciation. Oh, okay, that’s how it works.

But not only that’s how it works, okay, now that I know how that works, I now am in control of it. Whereas in a way, previously, I just was sort of a passive observer. Perhaps there was a setting area in my page builder or what have you. And if it was there, I could make use of it, and if it wasn’t, I couldn’t.

But also I think it drives you into that journey of understanding the open standards, the open web, the things that make up the technology which is free, available to everybody. What WordPress builds upon.

And I’m talking specifically about HTML, CSS and JavaScript, just those three things. The foundational pieces of the web. And it allows you to get involved in that, and be interested in that and understand where the web is heading. And especially like you said, with modern CSS’, it is coming really fast and it is fast replacing, in many respects, I think a lot of JavaScript really is going to be obsolete, for the front end side of things, in the fairly short term.

So it allows you to sort of nibble away at that and become more experienced. And if you haven’t had that journey but you’ve got a curiosity, this is possibly a great place to start. There is no question there, but I’m just sort of offering that up to see if that jibes with what you think.

[00:22:52] Rob Ruiz: I couldn’t agree more. And not only that, I think an important thing to think about WordPress as we move forward into the future and more competitors to WordPress emerge, I think it has never been more important to make sure that we have tools out there that are designed to facilitate people in their journey to getting into development. Because let’s be real, WordPress is open source, and we have to remember that WordPress is at the mercy of its contributors.

And so if the number of people contributing to WordPress starts to decline, so too will the progress of WordPress itself, unless other big companies with other developers that they’re actually paying are willing to foot the bill to like pay people to contribute to WordPress.

I don’t know that that’s the bright future that WordPress had originally like looked towards, right? I think what’s made WordPress so powerful and so successful over the years are the tinkerers, are the people that are willing to get in there and start to like learn things and figure things out. And then those people will slowly become contributors. And the more contributors we have to WordPress, the more WordPress itself will flourish. And then if that starts to go in the opposite direction, so too will WordPress.

And now these other services, and other solutions that are out there, are going to like eclipse WordPress and then people are kind of forced into a situation where it’s like, oh, well now you have to constantly go out and pay for and buy things, and now you’re at the mercy of these product authors, if you will, as opposed to being a part of a community of people that are all kind of collectively working together to make this one platform better all the time.

[00:24:37] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, the open web and all of the web standards that are behind that, it is such an interesting time for that. Rewind the clock, I don’t know, 10 years or something, and there was this whole bond fight thing where browser vendors were just distributing things which were either in opposition, certainly in competition to features. And so you could never really figure out what the heck you were doing, and each browser would behave differently.

That is so far in the rear view mirror now. In the majority of cases, new things like new CSS, the new CSS spec is broadly speaking, adopted by everybody out of the box. I mean, there might be a few tiny edge cases where, I don’t know, let’s say Mozilla is just not implementing something because they just haven’t quite got round to it yet.

But there’s no, Mozilla’s not doing that. It’s just a case of, we didn’t get around to it. And understanding that and being interested in that and thinking to yourself, well, goodness me, if I change my CMS of choice, at the end of the day, I still need to be able to output HTML and CSS. And so having that tinkerer mentality, which you are providing within the WordPress space is so interesting and so credible. So thank you for that.

Right, I’m going to pivot a little bit. So again, this is leaning in more to the inexperienced user. Forgive me if you are an experienced user listening to this, you probably know what you are doing. So maybe, you know, you don’t need all the 101 stuff.

What do you need to get WP Rig up and running? Because I think a lot of the audience listening to this will simply be, I have a server somewhere. You know, I don’t really know where it is, but I pay some company and I click a button in some control panel and WordPress magically happens. And then I install a theme and plugins, and that’s basically it.

So what do we need to get WP Rig up and running? What are the core parts, the processes that we would need to go through?

[00:26:24] Rob Ruiz: Yeah, well the important thing to keep in mind here is that it’s all on your own computer that you’re doing all of the work, as opposed to the WP admin approach where, when you’re interacting with WordPress, you are actually interacting with a remote server. The databases on the remote server, the files are on the remote server, all that stuff.

When you’re developing a theme or plugin from scratch, more often than not, I would say 99% of the time you’re doing it on your own computer. And so you do have to have, if you want these tools that facilitate this development process, you have to install them on your computer so that they’re available when you go to use them.

So there are some pre-reqs to using WP Rig. You do have to install Node. Node.js is a very common JavaScript runtime that runs on your computer and allows your computer to process JavaScript as if it’s a browser kind of, but it’s not, it’s just doing it on a server, which essentially any computer can be a server at any time.

And so you have to have Node installed. You have to have Composer installed. Composer is just a package manager for PHP, and it’s used beyond just WordPress. It’s used in Laravel. It’s used in any, even just raw, vanilla PHP development. Composer is very popular. So we do leverage some Composer packages to do some PHP level work in the theme.

And you need a local development environment, of course. So there’s the wp-env package out there. If you’re into the Docker way of doing local development. I’m a big fan of Local WP. I think that’s a great solution. WordPress Studio is another very good one. There’s lots to choose from out there.

So just choosing a local development environment and getting to know one of those is really handy because now you’re not dealing with a WordPress instance that’s on a remote server, you’re dealing with a WordPress instance that’s running on your computer. And this is where all of that magic is going to happen. All the automatic conversion of your CSS, all automatic conversion of TypeScript to ES5 JavaScript. All of the automatic things that WP Rig handles for you, all of that is happening on your computer.

And then there’s a process, a bundle process that happens. Once you’re done working on your theme, you can bundle the theme and then, this is where things get a little weird. So like when you first get working with WP Rig, you can think of the WP Rig theme, the starter theme as kind of like a source theme. But when you bundle, WP Rig actually generates a whole new theme for you that has the name of your theme baked into it. And not just like how it shows up in the WordPress admin, it goes through and it replaces all references to WP Rig in the code everywhere, across the entire code base of the theme. It changes the words WP Rig to whatever the name of your theme is.

So if you build a theme with WP Rig and you decide to sell it or deploy it or ship it or whatever to anybody, user, wherever, anywhere. Anybody that’s looking through that source code, for whatever reason, they would have no way of knowing that it was built with WP Rig because it’s just going to look like your theme.

[00:29:31] Nathan Wrigley: There’s something extremely satisfying about seeing your theme. The first time you see your theme. Stick it on a website somewhere and, oh, look, there’s the thing that I built. Whereas, you know, for many people, it’s been an entire experience of going to the repo, going to commercial theme houses and what have you, and downloading something and tweaking it and what have you.

And you really can start really, really, really small. You know, a few lines is really all that you need to get going and build up from there. Obviously it will start plain, but the more complexity you add.

But given that it’s all happening on your local computer, it’s not like you need to rush. This could be something which is years in the making. You know, you start today and maybe two years from now you are entirely happy and you’ve got something that you think is worthy of the world looking at. Well, that’s the point at which you can start to distribute it. As you’ve just described, because it’s all free, completely open source, when you ship that theme, export it, everything is run in such a way that nobody would ever know, which is just lovely.

Okay, so given all of this fresh, interesting stuff about WordPress themes, we’re in an interesting space in the WordPress theme marketplace, let’s call it that.

Several years ago, full site editing came along and now we’ve got this sort of different way of doing themes. Previously we had to open up an IDE and fiddle with template files and things like that. And now we’ve moved more into a page builder, let’s go with that. You know, there’s this Gutenberg block based editing of themes, where you can do more or less everything in a UI.

How does this fit into that piece, and what do you make of this new paradigm, this new way of doing themes? Are there benefits to it that you see, or drawbacks? Are you still doing it? Do you see a bright future for WP Rig? I’m guessing the answer’s yes, otherwise you wouldn’t be on this podcast.

[00:31:16] Rob Ruiz: That’s right. Yeah. Well, I will say that as somebody who had recently decided to adopt WP Rig, when the whole concept of FSE was first announced or introduced, I did have some strong opinions because I was like, oh my gosh, this is going to make my life very difficult if this becomes the way of doing things. And so I kind of foresaw a lot of where things have gone over the past few years.

So at the beginning I was a little hesitant because it kind of threw a wrench in this new thing that I was excited to adopt and start advancing. Over time I have come to appreciate it quite a bit. And in my opinion, it’s just allowed me as the maintainer of WP Rig, a lot of opportunity to really get in there and learn a lot, and get my hands dirty, and allow WP Rig to become something that was more my own, as opposed to something that I just adopted from some other people that had done a bunch of work, right?

Had that not happened, I probably would’ve just been like encouraged to just kind of sit back and be like, ah, yeah, you know what, this is my thing and it works and whatever. But this presented a lot of challenges and those challenges present a lot of opportunity if you look at it the right way. Not just opportunity to make something my own, not just opportunity to build things, but also opportunity, most importantly, I think, to learn things. And so that’s really been the gift of where all of this has gone for me personally.

Do I think that full site editing makes it so that you don’t have to make your own theme as much? Yes, I do think that is a thing because you have a lot more control of the way your website looks from within the WordPress admin area and creating templates and block patterns and all that stuff from within WordPress. It is different than how we used to do it, let’s put it that way.

However, as somebody who has decided to just like adopt it, I will say that if you can keep the paradigms and concepts all categorised and separated in your brain, then it’s actually quite powerful and can be extremely handy, especially with how fast the WordPress admin experience has gotten over the past few versions. It is very snappy now, almost to the point where it’s satisfying to use. Crazy to say. But it’s just so snappy. And we’ve got lots of little micro animations coming in there now where you can, you know, just the way everything happens is like, to me, it makes it a little bit more fun.

What does that mean for WP Rig? Well, that means there’s multiple paradigms that WP Rig has to support. So because WP Rig was originally created in the classic paradigm, when you first start using WP Rig, it does assume that you’re creating a classic style theme. But that doesn’t mean you’re forced to build a classic style theme. Because one of WP Rig’s strongest features is that there are whole bunch of custom command line commands that you can type in and run that will automatically convert WP Rig into these other paradigms.

So if you want to build a block-based theme or a universal theme, which is kind of halfway between classic and block-based, you could just run a command in your terminal and it will just automatically change a bunch of files in WP Rig to convert it to this other paradigm. And now you have full site editing as part of your theme.

And many people may not be aware of this, but the whole concept of full site editing is controlled by the theme. Whether or not you even have full site editing on WordPress is dependent on the theme. It’s not well, Gutenberg can be removed via a plugin, but in order to enable these functionalities, like if you want to be able to do full site editing, it is the theme that dictates that, not a plugin.

So it is important for WP Rig to facilitate that part of things. And so that is something that I’ve had to build out among many other things. Now WP Rig has a full block authoring experience built into it.

Now, this is where things get very, very opinionated among developers. But a lot of people argue that blocks are a, that’s plugin territory, right? Now, I don’t know about you, I’m not really much for territories. I like to pretend that borders don’t exist sometimes. And so there are situations where building theme level blocks do make sense. Keep in mind that if you decide to bake custom blocks into your theme, you have immediately disqualified yourself from contributing this theme to the wordpress.org theme repository. So keep that in mind. That’s a big cautionary, little tidbit.

But if this theme is just for you, or a client, or for usage outside of the WordPress repository, WordPress does have the ability to enable block authoring within WP Rig. And then now you can start to author blocks within your theme.

Where I like to think of this as like navigation, right? When I’m looking for themes, if I’m like shopping for themes, one of the first things I look at is, what is the navigation for this theme? What is that experience like? Because there’s lots of different kind of like styles of navigation.

If you need to create a custom navigation, maybe there’s a situation where the navigation block in Core WordPress doesn’t suit your needs for whatever reason. Maybe the design of what you’re trying to build somehow goes beyond what that block provides to you in terms of functionality. You could create your own custom navigation block, and in my opinion, that makes a lot of sense to be part of the theme as opposed to a plugin, right?

So there’s opinions there. Again, this is the nice thing about open source. There’s freedom there. But yeah, WP Rig has not just the ability to facilitate full site editing, but also the ability to facilitate block authoring at the theme level. So, yeah, one could look at this and be like, oh, this makes theme development kind of pointless because you could just do everything within the full site editor. I’m somebody that likes to kind of flip things on its head a little bit sometimes and say, actually, you know what that really means is that this gives the theme more control than perhaps you would’ve thought previously. And if you exercise said control, and if somebody provides an easy way to allow you to exercise that control, now we have a whole new paradigm. And in my opinion, that’s extremely interesting.

[00:37:39] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I think the thing that I’m taking away, well, there’s a few things from what you just said. The first one, fully hybrid. You know, it could be classic, it could be block based, or it could be somewhere in the middle, like this hybrid sort of approach, which doesn’t really get talked about all that much anymore, actually, which is curious. It was a big thing for a while, and now people seem to be on one side or the other. So there’s that.

But also the bit that I’m taking away from all of this is how much you are encouraging people to use this as an education piece. How to learn and scaffold your learning around something like the WP Rig project. It enables you to sort of peel back the layers. Start from a base of kind of nothing and build that up, slowly one piece at a time.

And your navigation is a really great example. You might have, I don’t know, maybe a client comes along who have proclivities around, it’s got to be 100%, we’ve got to give everything over on the accessibility side, we’ve really got to do that perfectly. Well, this maybe is a great place to start. You know, you start with a blank template for that, and you build your navigation. So you will end up exploring all sorts of documentation over on the W3C website. Probably not necessarily so much on the WordPress side of things. Figure out how to do that really well, import your knowledge that you’ve gained from that into the navigation aspect of WP Rig, ship that, you’re off to the races.

Now, with that in mind, if you go to the WP Rig website, there’s a lot of educational content there. So there’s the inevitable kind of getting started, which is what we talked about earlier, all of the packages and the package managers and what have you that you need to get up and running. So it explains how that is all to be done. Relatively straightforward to follow that through, I would’ve thought.

But then entirely separate to that is two different sections. You’ve got this like learn section where you’ve got documentation, video tutorials and things like that. But then you’ve also got like the docs area where you go into explain, oh I don’t know, how you might use JavaScript or CSS or some sort of compiled CSS or PHP and so on and so forth.

So again, no question there really, but it does feel, from my point of view, looking at this project that education is kind of the big piece. That’s the thing that you are most interested in. I don’t know if I’ve misrepresented this project, but that’s what it feels like.

[00:39:58] Rob Ruiz: A hundred percent. And I think that’s inevitable when it comes to getting into this tinkerer mindset. There must be a way to learn how to tinker properly. It is also nice to add guardrails to said, because let’s be honest, there’s like a million different ways to do everything, but there’s very, very few correct ways to do everything.

And so that’s another nice feature of WP Rig is that it has these sort of guardrails in place that allow you to check and make sure that you’re doing things properly. And if there’s anything that you’re doing improperly, you can obviously ignore those if you want to for whatever reason, or you can like dive into the weeds and say, okay, why is this improper?

So for instance, WordPress, Automattic created a package. It’s essentially an extension for a tool called PHPCS, which stands for PHP Coding Standards. This tool is used by PHP widely beyond just WordPress. But then WordPress adopted it a while back and decided to use it and create their own extension for it called the WordPress Coding Standard. It’s WPCS.

And so they’ve iterated on it over the years and WPCS is baked into WordPress, or into WP Rig rather. So if you want to make sure that your theme is following all of the WordPress coding standards for whatever reason, maybe it’s because you’re going to create a theme that you want to contribute to the wordpress.org theme repository, then that tool is baked into WP Rig for you, so that you can make sure that your theme meets all of the requirements for a properly developed theme before you even try to go and like submit it for a review or whatever.

Because that’s one of the most frustrating things ever is somebody who wants to contribute. If you try to contribute and then you get pushed back on, that’s like not a great experience. And so what I try to do with WP Rig is bake in this layer that is kind of like a, test it yourself type situation. Where you can kind of like have the system sort of, kind of review the code for you, and then that way you can make sure you’ve done your due diligence before you even try to submit it for review. To prevent that unfortunate situation where your theme might get rejected for one reason or another, and now you got to go back and rework it and then back and forth, back and forth, back and forth.

Having a tool like WP Rig that just tells you early on before you even try to submit it, hey, you should change this, you should change that. I think that’s extremely valuable for people. And again, I really want WP Rig to be something that encourages people to get more into contributing back into Core as opposed to. I mean, it can also be looked at as something like, okay, well you want to go develop your own thing and it’s for profit or whatever. It does very much facilitate that way of doing things too. But let’s be honest, anything that meets WordPress’s coding standards is probably going to make your theme, even if you’re putting it up for sale, it’s going to make it better.

[00:42:53] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I love that you’ve built all of that in. That’s really interesting. So it does a lot of the heavy lifting, trying to make sure that you are adhering to the standards, which one would hope would be in a shippable, distributable product.

Speaking of community, do you have a community which coalesce around this project? Is it basically just you? Or is there like a little team? And if not necessarily a team, is there a little community which gathers and sort of helps you put this project together? And a corollary to that question really is, do you anticipate in the future that you will like some contributors to help you maintain this as well?

[00:43:27] Rob Ruiz: Yeah, for sure. So when I first started, when I first adopted this as my own, there was more of a team in place because Morten is a very well-known individual. And so he had a lot of followers and so a lot of those followers had followed WP Rig. As time has progressed, a lot of those people have kind of unfortunately gone their own way. For whatever reason, a lot of the people that were following him weren’t really like, they might have been into learning how to develop themes. They certainly were into WordPress. But working on a project like this is more than just knowing how to develop themes. You also have to know how the underlying tools work too.

So that’s been my biggest challenge is learning, what is Lightning CSS? How do you use it? What is esbuild? How does that work? When I first took it over, it was ran on Gulp. What is Gulp? And what is that, and how do I modify it? And like that’s kind of far beyond WordPress, and so I think people became aware of that over time. And so while I rose up to the challenge, other people were just kind of moved on to other things.

So it is largely me. We do have a handful of contributors that kind of, when they have time, you know, they’ll feel ambitious again and jump in and do some more contributions and they’ll fall back and do their own thing for a while. And so there’s a lot of that. It’s not a very active community, certainly not as active as it was when I first adopted it. However, we do have a Discord now. You can find a link to the Discord on the website. If you go to the Learn V3 link in the header, there’s links to our YouTube channel and the Discord server.

So we are looking, I do want more of a community around WP Rig. And so I do encourage people to come on. Obviously we’ve been on GitHub this entire time, so if anybody wants to raise issues or submit a PR, there are guides on there. There’s a contributing.md file in there for anybody that wants to contribute, or wants to raise an issue. If you have ideas for how WP Rig could be better, that’s always been there. It’s just that, for one reason or another, it’s just not popular, which is a big reason why I’m on your show today actually is just to raise awareness about WP Rig now that I have had the opportunity to overhaul it dramatically over the past couple years.

In my opinion, it was a little bit, it started to feel a little bit slow compared to most modern tools. If anybody’s familiar with like Vite, or just modern frontend development frameworks. In general, they use more modern tools that build things faster and better, and they’re leaner. And so WP Rig was falling behind a little bit in that regard. And so I did have to like overhaul the project a lot. That’s why we came out with the version three because it is a pretty substantial overhaul.

And so now that we have version three and it is much better and there are all kinds of new features built into it as a result of it being faster, it’s now more capable. I want to raise awareness. A, I’ve already done the work, so it would be a shame for all that work to go unnoticed and unappreciated. But also, for anybody who was familiar with WP Rig from previous years, back in the version one, version two days, I think it’s important to make people aware that version three is substantially more capable than what it was prior.

[00:46:38] Nathan Wrigley: That’s wonderful. I’m just going to round off the episode by mentioning the URL once more so that after that clarion call, if people have been inspired and they have listened to this and think, I’d like to explore that. You know, for the multitude of reasons that we’ve covered in this topic. The URL, it’s really easy. It’s WP Rig, wprig.io. Go there, there’s a whole bunch of ways to get involved. So there’s the Learn documentation, there’s the contribute tab and so on and so forth. You can peruse at your leisure.

Rob, just before we end, is there a way that people could communicate with you more directly if they wanted to off the back of this? Is there a, like a, I don’t know, a social network or something that you frequent? Or a contact form that you’d like people to be mindful of?

[00:47:22] Rob Ruiz: Yeah, sure. I mean, I am very responsive to people on LinkedIn, so if you want to find me on LinkedIn, I am on there, Rob Ruiz, just look me up. If it looks like it’s a Rob Ruiz that does WordPress stuff, it’s probably me. And then of course, I’m on the Discord server. So if you want to communicate directly with me, joining the Discord and then messaging me directly is a nice way to do that. I’d love to help people, hold their hand if needed, get up and running with WP Rig. If you have any questions about specifics, I’m happy to address them, or you just need a little guidance, I’d be happy to help there as well.

[00:47:54] Nathan Wrigley: Well, thank you so much for chatting to me today, Rob. It’s been really interesting. So once more, just before we end to find out more. Rob Ruiz, thank you very much for chatting to me today.

[00:48:04] Rob Ruiz: Thank you so much for your time, Nathan. I really appreciate it.

[00:00:19] Nathan Wrigley: Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.

Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case WordPress sustainability, community engagement and release strategies.

If you’d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice. Or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.

If you have a topic that you’d like us to feature on the podcast, I’m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.

So on the podcast today, we have Jonathan Desrosiers. Jonathan has been involved with WordPress for almost two decades, both as a user and a contributor. He’s a principal software engineer at Bluehost, where his role sees him sponsored to work on WordPress through the Five for the Future program. Over the years, he’s become a Core committer, and has spent many hours thinking about how to enhance the contributor experience, and make it easier for people to get involved in the project.

In this episode we discuss how WordPress releases might become more impactful by synchronizing them with flagship community events like WordCamps and State of the Word. A recent experiment of combining a major release with a live event spark some excitement, and Jonathan shares insights on the logistics behind such synchronized moments, the challenges posed by international holidays, and regional scheduling, and the broader vision for connecting releases with community gatherings.

We also get into the challenging landscape of the WordPress community, how it’s recovering from the effects of COVID, the struggle to rebuild local Meetups, and efforts like mentorship and educational initiatives to bring in new contributors, particularly from younger generations.

Jonathan reflects on the importance of making release moments engaging and fun, akin to the anticipation of a new TV series or software launch, and the role of AI and open source in empowering a new wave of builders.

If you’re interested in how release cycles, community events, and contributor onboarding are involved in WordPress, or what the future might hold for the platform and its community, this episode is for you.

If you’re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you’ll find all the other episodes as well.

And so without further delay, I bring you Jonathan Desrosiers.

I am joined on the podcast by Jonathan Desrosiers. Hello.

[00:03:06] Jonathan Desrosiers: Hi, how are you?

[00:03:07] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, good. Jonathan’s joining me again. Most recently, I think we were at WordCamp somewhere. I can’t exactly remember where, but I was chatting with him and Joe Dolson if memory serves. And a very different conversation to be had today because Jonathan has been mulling over how we can make releases impactful, and also how we can bind those to community events, particularly flagship WordPress events like WordCamps, things like that.

Before we begin that conversation, Jonathan, I wonder, it’s a bit of a banal question, but people like to have the context of who you are. So would you mind just, very quick potted bio. Just tell us who you are and what you do in the WordPress space.

[00:03:44] Jonathan Desrosiers: Sure. So my name is Jonathan Desrosiers. I am a principal software engineer at Bluehost and I am sponsored there, the majority of my time is sponsored to contribute back to the WordPress project through the Five for the Future program. And so I’ve been there, probably since 2018, I think. And I’ve been a Core committer for almost eight years now.

I’ve been involved as an accredited contributor for 13 years now. And so I’ve been involved with WordPress for over a decade in many ways, contributing, but also as a user for almost, geez, almost two decades now I think. And so, I just had that realisation, it’s been a really long time. It’s been almost 20 years that I’ve been at least using WordPress in some way.

But week to week I do a lot of thinking about contributor experience, how we can automate things, or how we can make our processes more clear so that more people can participate. And just generally making sure that everybody has what they need to be successful. And whether that’s mentorship, or they have blockers they need, certain people to come together and discuss, and get a consensus or understanding, you know, how the sausage is made in some way.

[00:04:56] Nathan Wrigley: I think it’s fair to say that you are very much connected to the WordPress project. I think it’s the fulcrum of your working life, and you are working at a very high level as well. So Core committer, things like that.

Now, in the recent past, it was probably, I want to say December in the year 2025, we had a kind of strange event happened. Not strange in the sense of weird, but strange in the sense of different, unusual. A release of WordPress came out and it coincided with an actual event. Now, in this case, it was State of the Word. So there was a bunch of people, and I believe they were gathered in New York. I could be wrong about that, but I think it was in.

[00:05:33] Jonathan Desrosiers: It was in San Francisco.

[00:05:35] Nathan Wrigley: San Francisco. Okay, there we go. Thank you for the correction. It was in San Francisco and the idea was that the release of WordPress would go out and it would be bound to this event. And there was this almost, how can we describe it? It was almost like television, basically. It was being filmed and streamed live all over the place. And there was this feeling of a big red button. There was a lot of people gathered around and they all sort of leaned in and pushed a big red button, and the release of WordPress came out.

Now, I don’t know if the button actually did anything or if it was really sort of smoke and mirrors. I like the idea that the button actually did signal the release, but I don’t know if that’s the case. But the point was, there was a little bit of theater put into it. There was this idea that, okay, we’ve got this live event which lots of people will be watching. We’ve got a release which we need to do, which lots of people will be looking forward to. Why don’t we sort of combine the two things?

And so it was a bit of PR really. And it also felt a bit like sort of marketing, and I’m going to use gimmick in the real sense of the word. So not like gimmick as in something pointless, but gimmick as in something different, unique. Something to draw your attention and grab you in. And I think the idea has been proposed that in the year 2026, the flagship events, the flagship WordCamps, so I’ll list them in order in which they’re happening.

So we’ve got WordCamp Asia, and then we’ve WordCamp Europe, and then we’ve got WordCamp US. The three releases of WordPress during 2026 will happen in tandem with those events. Now, why? Why would we want to do this?

[00:07:12] Jonathan Desrosiers: Yeah, so I don’t think it was intentional, but the schedule just happened to coincide. You know, we were working on 6.9 and we realised, oh, the release date is the same as State of the Word. And so, I can’t remember who originally had the idea, but it was mentioned that it would be really neat to just be able to publish it live at the event and celebrate that.

I guess the main reason behind it is just that, the more I’m involved in open source, the more I realise that the code and the license and all those things are important, but the most important thing underneath any open source project is the community that’s involved with it. And what better way to celebrate our achievements and our accomplishments when we get together in different ways.

And so, typically that’s in Slack or social media, right? We celebrate a release and we share the posts and say what we’re excited about. But we also get together at different events and we do the same thing, right? We talk about what we’re excited about, what we’re working on, what’s coming, or what we think should change in certain ways. Why not just do that at the same time and create even a more ultimate celebration, right? Another community moment where people have another opportunity to feel involved in something greater than them.

[00:08:25] Nathan Wrigley: Do you have any notion that this is going to be carried forward? I mean, I know that there was obviously a bit of serendipity in how it happened. The coincidence of timing and things like that. But do you have every confidence that this will happen, that Asia will get a release, Europe will get a release, and the US will get a release. In the year 2026, do you think that’s going to actually occur?

[00:08:46] Jonathan Desrosiers: We will see. So as the proposed schedule is for this calendar year, right? There’s three releases. Unfortunately, it’s tough because the people planning WordCamps don’t plan around our software’s release cadence, right? They plan around budget, regional holidays, travel factors, weather, cost of venues and availability.

And so, you know, it’s not reasonable for the Core team and the people working on releases to say you have to have an event in a certain month, right? And so this year, some people may not have noticed, but WordCamp Asia is in April this year, which it’s been in February so far in the previous editions. And WordCamp Europe is in June, which it’s traditionally usually in.

And so that’s not a big enough gap to have another major release. And so the proposed schedule is saying, let’s release during WordCamp Asia, let’s release during WordCamp US, and then we’ll release again at the end of the year around State of the Word. We don’t have a date for State of the Word yet, but it’s around where we think it might be.

And likewise, creating a schedule for releases is incredibly hard because if we don’t release in the first week of April, for example, then I believe the whole month of April has major religious holidays scattered throughout it in different areas of the world. And if we released in March, that was way too soon because we started the alpha phase of 7.0, that starts when the previous release is branched, like it’s separated from the primary branch in the code base, and that happened in like November.

But there’s US Thanksgiving, there’s Hanukkah, there’s Christmas, there’s New Year’s, right? A lot of people in the community take the majority of December off, and so that’s like a washed month, right? And so we would’ve had essentially four weeks until the feature complete point of the release. So that was too soon. And so it’s just as hard to plan the release schedule in a way that doesn’t negatively impact everybody as best as possible as it is to plan these major events.

And so I can’t say that it will be a guarantee going forward. We’re trying it out this year to see how it goes and what we can learn from it. We felt that the State of the Word was successful and it was exciting. It was unique in its own ways. And so we want to try, continue trying this this year and see how it goes.

[00:11:06] Nathan Wrigley: Gosh, the piece that you just said there about the religious holidays and what have you, that really opens up a really interesting discussion. Because it is quite likely, I imagine, that the listenership to this podcast probably never gave that any thought, that this kind of international calendar, be it a religious calendar or maybe just a vacation calendar in certain parts of the globe would really impact when the release can happen.

Because there are people who are committing to the project, and they tend to be in certain jurisdictions. And so if there are people who are on, I don’t know, a week long holiday, nationally, in a specific jurisdiction, and they typically are a large part of the team that are committing in various different respects, that’s important, but probably something that many people would not have thought about.

Now, in terms of these releases then, is the idea, well, I’ll backpedal a little bit. It occurred to me that quite a lot of the people who may be involved in releases are the very kind of people who would find themselves also at some of these flagship events. Now, obviously it’s not going to be 100%, maybe it’s 25% of the people who are release leads and part of the teams that are committing here, there, and everywhere.

I was worried that there’d be people on airplanes, people trying to land and orientate themselves in the country that they’ve landed in in the same period of time when they would’ve been heads down, in their office, in their study, figuring out the bits that might be broken with the upcoming release. Is that a thing? Is that part of the jigsaw puzzle of this?

[00:12:32] Jonathan Desrosiers: It definitely is, yeah. With any release, there’s no time of the day where everyone on the planet is available to work on something, right? And so another part of this is that, in a way it forces us to have a major release in different geographic areas so that everywhere on the globe there’s a WordPress release that they may be able to participate in, right?

And so, likewise with travel, right? So when we assemble a release squad, we have to think, okay, it’s based in, for example, this one was planned to be released at WordCamp Asia in India. So we want to make sure we have a mix of people that are in different areas of the world. And not just so that there’s always people around to respond to things throughout the entire cycle, but we also want to have people that are present and not present at the event that are participating. And maybe the wifi is completely unusable or maybe something happens, right? So it’s good to have people that are there and not.

And that was part of the announcement too, is that we tried to underscore the point that it would be great if everybody could go to WordCamp Asia, but traveling is not a requirement to participate in the release at all. And that’s a good thing, because it’s good to have people in multiple areas, multiple time zones.

With WordCamp Asia, once contributor day ends, it’s the beginning of the US daytime, right? And so those contributors can sign off and there’s people around to help carry that torch and continue on if there’s any follow-up issues or anything that needs to be investigated.

And so, yeah, that’s also a consideration is how, I guess we can call it global coverage, right? Like, how can we ensure we have global coverage so that there are people with the right skill sets, and right availability, and right knowledge, to be able to take on certain tasks or responsibilities or perform investigations, whatever may need to be done as part of that release process.

[00:14:26] Nathan Wrigley: I, like you, am really in the weeds of the WordPress project. I obsess about it in a way that’s probably not all that healthy. I’m very well aware of when the next release is coming up. I’m usually fairly aware of what is going to be in that release. But I imagine most people using WordPress, it’s probably a bit of a surprise. You know, they open up WordPress one day and either it has updated. If it’s a point release, probably it’s a more manual thing, if it’s a major release, I should say, but if it’s a more minor release, maybe things have updated in the background during the course of the night and what have you.

But I’m thinking of TV series now. So when a successful TV series has a new season, there’s all this fanfare and buildup and you know it’s coming. You see the commercials, you see the adverts. And the moment that TV series comes around, you are excited, you’re ready to go. And I remember back in the day, this is going back a long time, when Firefox would make a release, they sort of did this thing like, I don’t know, every 18 months or something like that. Not like now where it’s every couple of hours it seems, that browsers update themselves.

But when it went to, I don’t know, 3.6 or something like that, there was this big fanfare, this big moment. Everybody took stock and what have you. And are you trying to encourage a bit of that? Are you trying to create a bit of razzmatazz and drama and intrigue and awareness and all of that around the release, and make it feel like an important thing, which with the best will in the world, it kind of has not been more recently? Most people, it just updates. There’s no fanfare whatsoever. But we can leverage it to make it important, significant, fun, interesting.

[00:16:04] Jonathan Desrosiers: Yes and no, right? Like, we want to celebrate the community and the work we’re doing now. I actually would love it if we could get to a point where we’re releasing every, I don’t know, every week or every month even, right? Not have to wait every three or four months. There’s some value in having that penultimate moment, right? Of, we’ve worked for three months on this. But there’s also aspects of the world where we expect things faster and more instant and waiting for the patch that you submit in January to be released in April is not really, like maybe you lose interest in contributing in that time, right? So there’s many different things like that.

Some things that you mentioned really resonated with me as far as awareness of what’s coming or like what’s been done. In a way, the fact that users are not so aware of what’s being added or what their site has updated to, it’s a sign of the success of auto updates and how seamless those are.

Because for a little while I’ve been considering, when you update WordPress manually, you’re redirected into the about page in the dashboard, right? And every release, there’s a new about page that’s designed, it works hand in hand with, we call them the micro sites, which is like a wordpress.org’s landing page that showcases the release. And it just explains all the features that have been added.

But you only see that if you either go to the about page manually or you manually click update when you’re in the dashboard. And a site might have many administrators that only the person that actually updates will see it. And so I’ve been thinking about ways that we can make users more aware that their site is updated. Or maybe that’s not the important part, but maybe it’s just the important part to make them aware of the new features that are available to them, right?

Maybe we put some type of a widget on the dashboard where we link off to a Learn WordPress page that teaches you about how to use the Notes feature that got added. The other thing too is you mentioned about the TV shows advertise when they’re coming up, right? Maybe we need to do a better job of advertising what’s coming up and encouraging people to opt in early and test.

And in a way a more rapid release cycle leads to that because many of the browsers have different feature flags and they build features out in different branches, and you can actually opt into testing a specific feature and that would get turned on, but maybe not all the other things that they’re working on until it’s ready.

And so maybe we need different ways for people to get involved testing, or trying things out earlier to understand what’s coming, but also to give us valuable feedback, how it works on their site, what breaks, what it doesn’t interact with. All of that is very valuable feedback, and we should always be striving to get more testers and more awareness around what’s coming because it creates new feedback loops that are valuable for different reasons.

[00:18:58] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it’s kind of interesting, and what I’m about to say, I am sure that a significant proportion of the listeners to this podcast will say, no, Nathan, we don’t want this. But here’s a proposal then. Here’s an idea. And again, I’m going to hark back to the TV series.

The TV series, typically when they’ve started advertising between other television programs, that TV series has been made, the footage has been shot, the graphics have been done. It’s basically ready to roll. And then they parcel all that up and then they release little snippets of what’s coming so that you can prepare yourself and get excited.

I kind of wondered if something like that in the dashboard, akin to the about us page, but in the run up to the release. So all the graphics have been made. We know basically what’s going to drop in this release. Now it may get tweaked here and there at the edges, but we know what’s coming. I’ve always thought that would be a really nice idea.

I would love to see that. And I realise a proportion of people would think, no, we really don’t want that. But I think that’s a perfect opportunity to get people drawn into, oh, this is coming. Collaborative editing, that’s about to happen is it? Gosh, that’s really interesting.

And then this call to action could be dropped in, but we need some testing around the edges of it. We’ve got the bare bones of it, but we need some more eyeballs on it and what have you. So that proactive demonstration of what’s going to happen rather than the reactive, your site has been updated, here’s what there is, which is already there. This is more of a here’s what’s coming, get excited, get involved, yada yada.

[00:20:29] Jonathan Desrosiers: In some ways the feature branch model that I described lends to that, right? Because then it’s not, here comes this feature and then, oh, actually we left it out of this release, right? It’s its own thing that’s being worked on. And then when it’s released, it’s released, and it’s here. But it doesn’t make it any less, any worse off than other things that are shipping in the release, right? Because it’s its own thing, and it’s its own, it has its own criteria to be ready, in a state that we’re comfortable with shipping it and supporting it forever because of backwards compatibility.

And so yeah, I think that what you’re describing is essentially what I was describing, a little bit more detail. And there’s of course a lot of nuance there around how often do we do that? We have a lot of parts of the release process that need to be automated before we can even consider that. The different parts of the block editor are, many of it is managed as packages, NPM packages. And so a lot of those are so interconnected, it’s a little difficult to release just one feature because they’re all being updated at the same time.

And so like there’s some architectural things to think about around that. Like, how do we compartmentalize things better to be able to do that? Make sure we don’t accidentally include something that’s not ready but when we intended to include a certain feature. There’s a lot to unpack there and I don’t know that we’ll ever get there just because of the sheer size of the project and how, backwards compatibility, how long we’ve been around.

But I think that training users that auto updates are important to have enabled that are quality, you know, not shipping things that break people’s sites as much as possible, even though it’s unavoidable because of how flexible WordPress is.

After 6.9 came out, I was looking into some of the data because I had this gut feeling that 6.9 was being updated to, slower than other releases. And so for a little while I was looking at that. And after about a month, I was like, okay, this is just a hunch. Let me go and actually look at the data around this.

And so what I noticed was actually the opposite. When I looked at, I created 5% thresholds for the percentage of total WordPress sites. And when I looked at the data, I realised that for the last 10 releases, let’s see here. So every major version of the last six to eight releases has passed 35% of all WordPress sites in two days or less. And also every one of these columns as far as percentages is increasing.

And so WordPress 6.9 reached the 50% threshold of all WordPress sites in 10 days, and that’s four days faster than 6.8, which was the next fastest. And currently we’re approaching 65% threshold of all WordPress sites. And only six other releases have done that so far. All of them are the most recent ones, except for 4.9, which we all know had a waiting period for Gutenberg. And the only release the past 70% was 6.8.

And so I’m interested to see how this trend continues because it’s showing an acceleration of adoption for each new major version of WordPress. They’re getting installed faster, by more people. It’s a sign that we’re shipping stable software. People are more confident. People are opting into auto updates for major versions. And in general, it’s just a quality sign that we’re doing something right here. And so how can we lean into that more?

[00:23:52] Nathan Wrigley: Okay, let’s pivot a little bit. Let’s sort of bind community, we did touch on this a minute ago, but let’s spend a little bit of time binding the community to these kind of things because right at the start you mentioned that really the community is the underpinnings of your interest in the WordPress space. The code is obviously tremendously important, but without the community there is no code basically.

And so we’ve got these events. We’re trying to create interest around the WordCamps and the releases at the same time. But just looking back over the last period of time, let’s go for year, two years, something like that. I don’t know what your spidey sense is telling you, but my spidey sense is telling me that that community portion, it’s sort of slowly but surely, it feels like it’s withering away slightly.

I’m not really picking up on like this angry mob of people who are stamping their feet and shouting, I don’t want anything to do with the WordPress community and then disappearing. I mean maybe there’s a few of those, probably, somewhere. But I don’t get a sense of that. I just get this sense of sort of, somebody’s pulled the plug out of a bathtub and it’s slowly sort of draining away.

Attendance down at WordCamps. Meetups struggling to sort of get the numbers that they had several years ago. And so it would feel like at the moment, you would have to be watching the news fairly closely, especially right now. So at the beginning of February, 2026 is when we’re recording this. There does seem to be a push from the senior leadership to make WordPress Meetups and things like that, a much more central part.

And then there’s this whole broad spectrum of educational initiatives as well going on. So we’ve got WP Campus Connect, we’ve got the Credits Program and a whole smorgasbord of other things which is happening.

So there’s no question there, really, what I’m just trying to do is give you the opportunity to bind the two things, the WordPress community and the software, and really just talk about whether you’ve noticed the same thing as me, where there’s this slow, withering of the community. And maybe this is a part of just sort of getting it all back together, making events like this a bit more fun and interesting.

[00:26:02] Jonathan Desrosiers: Yeah. I think there’s a few things there to call out. The first observation I’ve had over the last year is there’s a palpable excitement to build with WordPress again. I’m noticing there’s a renewed enthusiasm. People, they want to move on from certain things, and they want to get back to building experiences and tools and things on the WordPress platform.

But there’s also, I think we’re dealing with some, in some ways, a long tail COVID effect, right? There was obviously, you know, a lack of in-person events for a while, and during that time a lot of the people who were keeping Meetups alive and WordCamps alive, they moved on, or burnt out, and chose not to return after. And so there was a break in that pipeline of, usually there’s a lead doing that and there’s other people learning under them, and then they move up and take over. And that was totally disrupted and I think that we’re still trying to rebuild that.

I think that it manifests differently in different areas too. So for example, the APAC WordCamp community is very strong and they have lots of WordCamps. But in the United States, there was one WordCamp that wasn’t WordCamp US last year, I think, Montclair. And I lead the Boston WordPress Meetup and so finding speakers is difficult. Getting people to come out is difficult as well. And I think those are partially just larger societal shifts where it’s harder to get people to come out to certain things. And we just have different preferences as far as how we consume information or learn.

But I’m still not sure why the difference in the geographical areas, and I think it may have to do more with, APAC is a more emerging market when it comes to WordPress, right? Like their community, especially in certain areas has been growing and is much newer than it is in the US. And so I think that they’re growing their communities for the first time in many ways, right? But in the US it’s the second or third or fourth time that we’re growing those communities or revitalising those communities. And the form that that needs to take, I think is a little different. And I’m not clear on what the holdup is there.

But I do know that a big factor of that is to get new people involved with WordPress and interested in WordPress, and that’s why some of the priorities that Mary Hubbard published, and one of them in particular is education and awareness and all of those different things that work together in the form of the WP Credits program, mentorship programs. There’s been the contributor mentorship programs that happen every few quarters in WordPress over the last few years.

And we’ve seen some really great contributors who were mentored in that program, and then the next time the program happened, they mentored, and then they became a team lead, and then they served on release squads. And so we’ve seen some really great contributed journeys through those paths.

[00:28:53] Nathan Wrigley: I’ll just sort of run through with you the kind of things that I’ve noticed in my part of the world. So I think COVID is an enormous part of it. It upended so many ordinary things in life. So, as an example, you know, people obviously, they ceased going out, and then that pattern of not going out became habituated. People didn’t go out because that’s not what you do.

And in the UK we have this institution called the pub, which I’m sure you’ve heard of. And it used to be that prior to COVID, the pub was the real centerpiece of many communities. You know, towns, suburbs, what have you. Everybody would coalesce around the pub and that was very important. Since the pandemic, a lot of those institutions, they don’t really function in that way anymore. You know, there isn’t the throughput, there isn’t the footfall and so they go out of business.

And the same, I presume is true in the WordPress space. You know, we’re trying to encourage people to get up, leave their home, spend money on transportation. Obviously there’s the time cost, the sunk cost of time and what have you as well. It’s difficult, but it makes me more sanguine that it’s not just like, it’s not just a WordPress thing, you know, it’s the whole of society.

But like you said, I get the feeling that the WordPress community has begun to address it. And the way it’s being addressed is through these educational initiatives. Trying to get a throughput of younger talent. So get them at the school age, get them at the university age, and then hopefully they will have an interest. They’ll get a flavor of what it means to be involved in these Meetups and things like that and hopefully take those on.

It’s a laudable goal. I hope that it has the capacity to transfer. You know, so in a decade’s time we can look back and say, look what happened. This young blood emerged. I think it’s yet to be seen. I think certainly in the area, the locale where I am, the United Kingdom, we don’t see evidence of that yet. Maybe in the US that would also mirror.

But from everything that I’ve learned and the people that I’ve talked to for this podcast and events in Asia and places like that, that seems to be a really different picture. There seems to be a real thirst for solutions like WordPress. Because there’s a direct kind of career path there. You know, you can pick up a free piece of open source software, crack open a laptop and get going and start to sell your services far and wide. And so again, there’s no question there, just observations that I hope these initiatives bear fruit. But it’ll be interesting to see. Only time will tell.

[00:31:16] Jonathan Desrosiers: I think at the root of what we’re dealing with is that people are motivated by what they see as valuable, right? If they’re not going out to events, so they’re not engaging with the community, they don’t recognise or feel that it’s valuable to them in some way. And so we’re having to reprove why communities are valuable, why open source is valuable, why you should care.

And then the other aspect of it is, you know, overall project sustainability. We can’t just keep getting older. We need to have a balance of new, younger people that get involved as well.

And so one way to lean into getting younger is obviously, like you said, to approach people at schooling age, right? Or university, and teach them about open source. Show them how to contribute, how to be a part of a community, and why it’s valuable. But we have to be really careful because we need to be prepared to, I’ve written in the past that we need to be prepared to activate these contributors, right?

So it’s one thing to make them aware of this, but it’s another thing to make sure they’re properly supported and we give them pathways to grow. We give them clear criteria to be successful, clear projects to work on, so they understand what they’re doing and what they’re trying to accomplish.

And I think that this is one thing that is also a benefit of having the releases coincide with these major events because new people are getting together already, so why not use that opportunity?

One of the goals that every table lead and every organiser of a Contributor Day has is to ensure as many contributors see, realise their work over the finish line. And so on the Core team that’s a patch that someone tests gets committed, or a patch someone writes gets committed to WordPress, right? How can we make that more valuable, where it’s not just ending when they leave Contributor Day?

And so I’ve been thinking about all the different logistics and helping to coordinate with the WordCamp Asia team and the 7.0 release team to make sure we’re prepared for that final day. And one of the things I’ve been thinking about is the release process itself. One of the best, lowest friction ways to get involved with WordPress in the actual release process. And you don’t need any experience contributing to really take part in it. And that’s when we get to a point where we say, okay, here’s the zip file of what we think we’re going to ship, go test it.

And so people will take it, and they install it on their server and they say which version of PHP they’re using, and how they installed it and what they did and, you know, it worked. And the majority of that though is just looking for problems. And when problems don’t come up, we just don’t do anything with all the information that people are dropping, right? And there might be 50 people at a major release. We call them parties, but at the release parties that are dropping information. And again, if there’s no red flags, that information just largely goes away.

But, how can we rethink that and make that effort more meaningful, and also create a pathway for them to continue contributing in some way past that moment? And having everybody in person is a great way to have pilot programs for different approaches, because there can be someone that briefs a set of contributors on what we’re going to try this time, here’s what we want to do, give us feedback on how you felt it went. Everybody that’s involved in the squad and doing the release can say, oh yeah, that actually was really helpful and better than what we do before.

And these newer individuals that are learning also have fresh perspective. And so having them participate in these, I guess I’ll call them experiments of such, but just these processes and things that we are considering, it helps get that fresh opinion and perspective on why things are working and why things aren’t and helps us just improve.

[00:35:04] Nathan Wrigley: I’ve got three children and they’re all of a certain age now, they’re certainly no longer small. You know, they’re basically adults. And it’s really fascinating looking at the kind of things that engage them. I think they’ve just grown up in a different era. The diet of the kind of things that excite them is very different to the kind of things that excited somebody of my generation, just because, you know, they’ve had the whole world in their pocket ever since they were born.

And having that dialogue with the next generation, and trying to figure out what it is that they want and that they desire. And even things like open source. So when, I was already an adult before the internet began to be put into everybody’s homes, and people started to own personal computers and things like that. And so I was ready to receive that message of open source right at the start. And it became really obvious to me, oh, that’s a really clever way of making software.

But now of course we’ve got this landscape of closed platforms. Everything’s free at the point of use, but everything’s not free in any way, shape, or form. You can think of the siloed platforms that I’m talking about. My children have been raised with those and so just even making the argument about open source is hard enough.

So I think what I’m really advocating for is, obviously we’ve got to shepherd these people in, but at the same time, I think we have to be willing to let go of a lot of the things that we think the project is. We think the Meetup should contain. We think the WordCamp should maintain. Because at the end of the day, we’re competing for eyeballs and if we don’t make it, I’m going to use the word exciting, if we don’t make it exciting, they’re just not going to show up.

And I feel that’s a piece of the next five, six years, trying to figure out what excites these people. Because unless we do excite them, I fear the Meetups are going to be empty and there’ll be a certain throughput from the WordPress initiatives, Campus Connect and what have you. But we need to make these things exciting, interesting, innovative, fun. But I don’t have an answer to that.

[00:36:59] Jonathan Desrosiers: Yeah, you touched on something interesting that I’ve been thinking about quite a bit. I gave a talk last year about how to implement AI into open source communities while maintaining what makes them great in the first place, which is the human element, right? The community aspects of it.

And so I’ve been thinking a lot about just AI and how it’s affecting us. And there’s a few things that I’m really excited about with AI and those are empowerment and learning. And so you can have an AI model that digests massive amounts of information and summarises it in the specific way that you learn best, right?

And likewise, I’m noticing that people feel more empowered to try things themselves because they have more of an ability to distill a lot of information down into something that’s digestible, right?

And so I feel that the tension between those two areas of closed and open is growing. Because when I was growing up, computers were just starting to be less than the size of a car, right? People were starting to have them in their house. But they were still at a point where, the computer went bad, you took it apart and fixed it. You didn’t trade it in for a new one, right?

And so I feel like my generation, there was a level of, we had the tools, but we had to go out and build the things we needed ourselves in some ways, and experiment. And then there’s been the generations between that and now where they pretty much had everything that they needed.

But AI is changing what we need, or what we want, and what ways we want it. And so now there’s a new found need to build again in some ways. And in some ways it’s kind of a circle, right? Because it’s, the AI is making it easier to build, but it’s also making you more aware you have to build. It’s kind of like building against itself in certain ways.

But I’m finding that there’s more of a willingness to do things on your own, try to tackle something you would typically need to hire a professional to do in the past. You know in many ways we need to lean into that because then that gets people excited. Oh, WordPress, I could use WordPress to build this, or I could use just the WordPress for just the database part of it and the REST API and have some type of application on it because it scales well and it caches or whatever it may be.

But I feel like people are starting to scoff at the walled gardens a little bit more, and I’m seeing that there’s a resurgence in things like RSS. I’m seeing new RSS readers are popping up. People are leaning towards the Fediverse. People are blogging more, having their own website instead of just their business on Facebook, right? Because that can get taken away.

We saw with Twitter how they just chose to close their platform. And embeds no longer work in WordPress because they shut down oEmbeds. And I feel like it changes every month, but there’s times where you have to log in to see a post, or you can’t see a post, or you can see one post and then you can’t see any more that’s shared externally. Yeah, so it gives you more control.

[00:40:02] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I think that’s really interesting. And I also noticed that swing. Obviously, I don’t have any broader data. I can only point to the things in my life, the little intuitions that I’m gaining. But I see the same thing. I see an interest in AI, so we’ll just put that to one side for a moment. But in terms of the closed platforms, I do see that the people that I know who are significantly younger than me, they have intuitions around that, and they’ve kind of figured out for themselves that this is not great. It seems to be a vehicle to serve me ads, and I wonder what the incentive is for the stuff that I’m seeing, and maybe it’s kind of pushing me off in one direction politically and all of that.

And yeah, this resurgence of RSS, of the blog. I know it’s hard to talk about, but it’s almost like we’re doing some sort of archaeology in the internet space. We’ve gone back to something older. We kind of dug up the relics from the past and we found that they’re still usable. They’re still there.

It’ll be so interesting. But I think if it was just the RSS and it was just the open nature of things, I think that’s going to be a hard sell. But throw AI into the mix, this capacity for somebody with very little relationship with writing code who can get something credible out. Now, it may not be robust, it may have security problems here and there. The accessibility may be something that needs to be addressed and what have you. But who can argue with the excitement of it.

You know, you tell a computer to make a colourful website that’s got rainbows and pictures of cats, and sure enough, two minutes later you have a website with rainbows and pictures of cats. And that wasn’t possible until just a couple of years ago. And so I think we’ve got the tools. I think there’s things that we can deploy. AI seems to be the primary one at the moment. Let’s hope that that continues to be sustainable.

But that’s interesting. That gives me some hope. And the way that you’ve encapsulated it, open source combined with things like AI. Trying to get Meetups back. Trying to combine it with educational initiatives. Trying to combine it with WordCamps and releases.

[00:41:52] Jonathan Desrosiers: You mentioned something that’s important there in that it’s very easy for someone to get something built that they need specifically, right? And I think that’s where we’re at right now where AI is, like I said, is empowering, but more on a personal level. Once you need to scale those things, that’s when it gets difficult.

And it’s a rollercoaster of, oh my God, there’s going to be no software. And then, oh, look at all this crappy software that AI built. We are always going to have a job. And then it’s like up and down all throughout time as new tools get released. And it definitely matches what I’m seeing is like the personal empowerment level, they could take that and run with it and build this really massive thing, or they could just build something that they just want, that does specifically what they want, that they haven’t found out there that it accomplishes.

And I think that another aspect of that is I’m noticing that a lot of people that you may not have thought would try things in the physical world on their own are more likely to do so as well. So maybe changing their faucet, or doing a landscaping project or something. I feel like we’ve had YouTube tutorials, right, has been a big thing for maybe a decade, right? But I feel like AI has unlocked a new level of empowerment where people feel more confident to try things because of the knowledge that’s available to them in different ways.

[00:43:09] Nathan Wrigley: The year 2026 is going to be punctuated by WordCamps. It’s going to be punctuated by WordPress releases. Hopefully we will start to see the needle move on educational initiatives, and maybe some younger people joining in with the community.

That has been a fascinating chat, Jonathan. I really appreciate that, getting your insight into what I think we both hope is going to happen in the WordPress project. That it will still be relevant in 10 years time, and that there’ll be children who are now, not old enough to be using computers, in a decade, they’ll be coming on podcasts like this, and hosting podcasts like this, and being involved in the community that we love so very much.

Where can we find you, Jonathan? If people want to talk to you and have a bit of a natter, where’s the best place to locate you?

[00:43:48] Jonathan Desrosiers: My website is just jonathandesrosiers.com. I’m desrosej pretty much everywhere on the internet. I try to keep it consistent and easy. And you can also, of course, find me in the wordpress.org Slack.

[00:44:01] Nathan Wrigley: I will link to all of those in the show notes. So if you go to the wptavern.com website, search for the episode with Jonathan Desrosiers, you’ll be able to find all of the links probably at the bottom underneath the transcript and the preamble. Go and have a look down there and hopefully we’ll be speaking soon. I’ll probably see you in Mumbai in a few weeks time. Take care, Jonathan.

[00:44:21] Jonathan Desrosiers: Thank you. Look forward to it, and hopefully I see your listeners there as well.

[00:00:19] Nathan Wrigley: Welcome to the Jukebox podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.

Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, redefining WordPress product growth in a crowded ecosystem.

If you’d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.

If you have a topic that you’d like us to feature on the podcast, I’m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.

So on the podcast today we have Matt Cromwell. Matt has been an influential figure in the WordPress ecosystem for many years. He co-founded GiveWP, led its growth, and continued his journey as part of the StellarWP leadership after it was acquired.

Recently, Matt has shifted gears, launching something new. It’s called Roots and Fruit, and is an agency dedicated to helping WordPress product businesses thrive. In recent years, WordPress has gone through a period of flux. There’s been shifting stats about WordPress’s market share, tightening budgets, and increasing competition from both within and outside the.org plugin repo. Despite these changes, Matt remains optimistic about the opportunities for product makers, especially as WordPress evolves alongside emerging technologies like AI.

Matt starts off by sharing his background, his experience with GiveWP, and the unique perspective he gained navigating growth, crisis, and the challenges facing plugin developers. We then talk about how the WordPress product space has matured. Why building a plugin, or theme, and hoping users will simply discover it is no longer enough, and how focusing on the customer journey, branding, and marketing is more crucial than ever.

Matt is now positioning himself as a mentor and guide for solo founders and product teams, helping them prioritize growth efforts, refine their product experience, and avoid the scattered approach that many developers fall into. He brings practical insights from years of hand-on experience, and explains why a successful WordPress product business relies on process, diligence, and wise prioritization, not just code and hope.

If you are building digital products in WordPress, and want to learn how to make them stand out in a crowded, competitive ecosystem, this episode is for you.

If you’re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you’ll find all the other episodes as well.

And so without further delay, I bring you Matt Cromwell.

I am joined on the podcast by Matt Cromwell. Hello, Matt.

[00:03:22] Matt Cromwell: Hi. Happy to be here.

[00:03:24] Nathan Wrigley: Matt and I have chatted many times. In fact, we were having a nice chat just before we realised that the time was going to get away from us. So we’ve diverted and pressed record. We were getting into AI, but we’re going to park that because that’s a whole different episode. Well, maybe not. Maybe there’ll be bits of that leaking into this episode.

[00:03:39] Matt Cromwell: It’ll come up.

[00:03:39] Nathan Wrigley: I’m sure it will. But as I say, Matt’s been on the podcast before. He has had a significant sort of reshaping of his career in the recent past. And so we’re going to talk a little bit about what the new direction is, and where he’s going to be focusing his efforts in the near to long term.

But Matt, just before we begin, do you want to tell us a little bit about you and what you’ve been doing in the WordPress space these many years?

[00:04:01] Matt Cromwell: Absolutely. Thanks so much. I’m Matt Cromwell. I am was, it’s hard to figure out how to introduce myself anymore. I was co-founder of GiveWP and sold that product in 2021 to Liquid Web and stayed on and came on the leadership team of what became StellarWP, and took all the things I learned from Give and got to apply them across lots of products, in an excellent learning journey.

Recently exited back this last fall, 2025, and went on a journey of discovering in what I want to do, and found that I could not prime myself away from the keyboard enough and decided that now’s the time I get to invest my time and efforts and energy in the WordPress product ecosystem like I always have. So I built a new agency called Roots & Fruit, which I have basically said is your fractional chief growth officer agency. I just launched a couple weeks ago and it’s going well. So that’s what I’m doing. That’s how I say it.

[00:05:02] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I love the domain, by the way. The minute I saw that, I think I got where you were going without even having read a word. Roots & Fruit sort of says it all, doesn’t it? It’s the growth to the actual harvesting at the end. And so we will get into that.

Can I just ask you though, we’ll begin this way because we’ve had several years now of flux in the WordPress ecosystem. You have charted the growth of many products in the WordPress space. You’ve been involved in them personally, and you’ve seen the journeys of other founders and what have you.

Do you have the same level of optimism that the Matt Cromwell, let’s say from the year 2020, when everything was going gangbusters, that 35% went to 38%, went to 40%, and on it went. Do you have the same level of optimism? Do you think there still is fruit to be harvested in the WordPress space in 2026?

[00:05:59] Matt Cromwell: Absolutely I do. There’s a lot of caveats in there, I have to say. Being at GiveWP, we had a unique perspective when it came to things like a pandemic. It was like an internal thing where we were afraid of becoming ambulance chasers, okay? Because, especially in the US, when a crisis would come, suddenly our sales would go through the roof. And it’s because when bad things happen, people need to do fundraising. And the worst thing we wanted to do was start capitalising on trauma or things like that.

And so when COVID came along, we were like, woah, this is going to be significant. And it was. It was a very significant thing. But we had been through the motions, so we knew that it was going to have a downside on the tail end of it, sales-wise. And I think a lot of folks understood that conceptually as well. But we had experienced it a lot.

But what a lot of folks found out on the tail side of COVID was that the downside was worse than it was pre COVID. A lot of folks felt that, even GiveWP to some extent and several of the Stellar products were like, oh, we’ve leveled out, we’ve come down off of the COVID high, and actually it feels a little bit worse than it was before. Budgets got tight in terms of businesses and agencies, nonprofits, things like that. There’s lots of circumstances to those things. But over the last year or so, a lot of product companies have started to see things start to slowly climb again.

But in the WordPress space, I think it’s important that everybody also look at our ecosystem in the bigger ecosystem of just the web. On the web there are small to medium to large companies launching all the time with huge amounts of success. Just a couple years ago, nobody knew what Lovable was. Now it’s a billion dollar company. Things like that do happen and they happen regularly. That to me means there is still lots of appetite for the kinds of solutions that we are trying to bring to the world through the web. And we can be part of that solution.

Now, the conversation you and I had a little bit before was more about like, what about WordPress and the threat or the opportunity of AI? I do think the way in which WordPress Core has been tackling AI and trying to bring tooling into WordPress Core is making sure that WordPress itself as a platform has not only a future, but it has a lucrative future. I think the way that they’re going about it is really smart and really intelligent, and it is going to actually build the platform in a way that makes AI understand how to build with WordPress better than anything else out there.

WordPress is the most, one of the most documented, open source projects in the world, and it’s been open source this whole time, and AI loves that kind of stuff. So it just has been able to scrape the WordPress database, the WordPress code, all the WordPress documentation over years and years and years. AI now knows WordPress really, really, really well. So I think there’s lots of opportunity.

[00:09:07] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, no, it’s really great because you covered a lot of ground there. I should say, dear listener, at this point, maybe go and have a look at Matt’s domain. I mentioned it, but I’ll just read it into the record. So it’s Roots with an S. Roots and fruit singular, .com, rootsandfruit.com. So go and check that out. Maybe pause the podcast if you’re at a screen and.

[00:09:28] Matt Cromwell: Singular and plural.

[00:09:29] Nathan Wrigley: Both. Yeah, you’ve managed to get all the goodness in there. Go and pause the podcast and have a little poke around and you’ll get some intuition as to what Matt is doing over there.

I’m going to sort of sidestep a little bit though, because I want to frame this question slightly differently, and that is to, I’ll frame it like this. I, as a consumer of WordPress things, I’ve spent the last 15 or so years pottering around, having a problem, then going to Google and discovering that there’s typically a WordPress plugin or theme or what have you, for that. And then I go to their website and perhaps there’s two or three websites that I might be juggling and thinking which one is superior for the needs that I have. And then I purchase something, you know, I go and I buy a premium version of something or maybe download the free version to give it a test.

But the point is, I have this really abstracted concept of what it is. I’m buying a commodity. So I buy the finished thing and it comes as a zip file, and I typically don’t interact with a human being. And that’s the interesting bit that I want to get into to begin with, is the human behind all of this, which was you for many years.

And so can we just explore that a little bit? What is the stuff that somebody like you, when you were with GiveWP, but maybe now the clients that you are going to be servicing, what is their day involved with? What do these people do? What are the anxieties they have? What is the stuff that makes up a plugin or theme developer’s life and business?

[00:10:55] Matt Cromwell: Generally speaking, product folks are nerds, love to be behind the screen. And they like this kind of industry, specifically because they don’t have to be the person dealing with the customer as much. That distance that goes between the screen basically, is something that gives them a sense of safety, where they get to focus on the work that they love and they enjoy, without having to deal with the noise of the people.

The exception to that are all the folks that are highly motivated to help with technical support. And I love those people. Those are my people. My focus as a founder was more on the customer support and marketing side of things, so I enjoyed being more of the face of things for our brands over the years.

But the allure there is both being able to have that separation from the noise of the public, but also having a little bit of the security of what might be called mildly passive income. And that’s the big difference between folks who are running an agency and folks who love to run product. Agencies are service oriented folks. They have to be with the customer and the client all the time. You are paying for hours. You’re being paid for the time that you put in, in many ways. With agency service work, there’s ways to get away from just purely time-based charging, but by and large.

In the product space, you’re not being paid for the time you put in. You’re being paid for the product, and for the outcomes that the customer experiences. And that’s what you bought Nathan, when you went and bought a utility or a tool or whatnot. You weren’t looking to hire a person, you were looking for a specific outcome on your website, and you felt that that one product could provide you that outcome. And once you had that outcome, you’re happy.

And that’s exactly why product shops are, in my mind, have to be customer oriented first because all of the success, all of the success of the product, of the marketing, of the business, all starts with whether or not the customer is happy.

[00:13:05] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah. We have this expression in the English language which is, a rising tide carries all boats. And essentially what it means is, when there’s this sort of groundswell of growth, everything touching it grows. And I think we had that in all sorts of ways recently, over the last decade or so.

The mobile phone app ecosystem, that just was taking off and all the developers over there were doing incredibly well. Same with the WordPress space. Just year on year growth. And so there was this notion, which you reference on your website quite a lot, of build it and they will come. And that phrase essentially is, okay, I am one of those people. You said, nerds.

I’m going to build a product, and I have a complete expectation that I am part of that rising tide. I’m one of the boats. I’ll build this thing, I’ll mention it a few times on social media, and this thing that I’ve spent hours and hours doing will take off and I will be able to have some kind of passive income from it.

Now, I don’t know when you started saying that those days were gone, but you are definitely saying those days are gone. Why are those days gone? What happened? What changed to make it so that the rising tide carries all boats analogy, possibly no longer fits?

[00:14:17] Matt Cromwell: It depends on the context. I mean, it fits in several different ways. But when it comes to product in the WordPress space nowadays, we used to depend so much on the wordpress.org plugin, or theme, directory as a primary outlet for discoverability. I want people to find that I exist and that I am a solution for their problems, and this is where you find me.

The plugin directory in particular, when we launched GiveWP, I think there were 30,000 plugins at the time, or approaching 30,000. And now there’s over 60, and they are growing every day more or less. They grow and they shrink. They get rid of plugins too, actually. But that does increase the amount of surface area where you have to break through in order to be found. If you try to be an AI alt text generator right now, good luck. There are three dozen of those that got shipped yesterday. It’s crazy.

But even more so than just the noise and the volume on the plugin directory, it’s also that the consumers that are building their websites, they are not thinking about WordPress as much anymore. They’re building with WordPress, but they kind of don’t care that it’s WordPress. They’re just building a website. They have specific outcomes and they know that there are lots of products out there that can serve their needs, and they don’t care if it’s a SaaS, or a platform, or a plugin, or a theme. They don’t care. They’re just going to look for that outcome and they’re going to plug it into their website in one form or another, if that solution is pluggable.

And that space, the SaaS space in particular, has gotten a lot more crowded and a lot more competitive for being applied directly to the WordPress customer. So we’re not just competing WordPress to WordPress, we’re competing WordPress to the rest of the whole world.

[00:16:18] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that’s interesting. So my analogy, when I said a rising tide carries all boats, what I’m imagining 10 years ago is that there was a really nice looking harbor with a few little boats. And the tide came up and these little boats just bobbed along and they all rose up. Whereas now it feels like the harbor is just chockablock. There’s boats cheek by jowl with other boats. They’re slamming into each other. And instead of it being a gentle rise, it’s stormy, clouds. The sea is choppy all over the place, and everything is sort of bumping into each other.

In other words, it’s saturated. If you are going to be doing the alt text plugin for AI, well, there were six that came out this morning. There’s going to be nine more by the time we close the doors this evening. Whatever it is that you are doing in the WordPress space, chances are somebody’s already done it. They may already have an existing audience. They may already have paid subscribers.

So this all sounds very bleak. It sounds like we’ve got no way out of this. But your endeavor, what you want to turn your attention to in the years to come, is to persuade people that’s not the case. So what is the rainbow? What is the shining light on the horizon? How would a plugin developer, a theme developer, somebody in the WordPress space, how do they cut through all of this and get noticed?

[00:17:28] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. A lot of things have changed over the years, but I would say the majority of things, when it comes to digital products, have not changed. And that’s really the brass tacks of what it takes to be a winning product on the web in general. SaaS companies have known this for a really long time because they didn’t have the obvious distribution channel of wordpress.org that we have.

So they knew if they were going to ship a product, they’re going to have to market it a ton. In the SaaS space, there’s very, very, very few just handy developers who are like, hey, I just built this cool thing, I’ll just put it out there. And then all of a sudden it just goes off like crazy. It doesn’t work that way, and they know it. And so they partner up with marketers.

And in the WordPress space, for way too long, we got lazy because we had the .org distribution channel. And we assumed that we could build it and people would come. And that’s not like one hundred percent wrong. The directory is still a good tool, and it’s still helpful, and I love the freemium model for products in general. But the thing that WordPress product folks in particular have to learn is to learn how to be a product business, not a code business.

And that’s even more significant now that everyone is learning that code was never the product, because now nobody is building with code anymore. The humans do not build the code anymore. The machines build the code. And you’ll find lots of marketers or CX folks who are building their own apps now as well because they’re savvy enough to use the tools to be able to generate the code that they need and that they want.

[00:19:11] Nathan Wrigley: Can I just pause for a second there Matt, is that all right? Just because there’s a couple of things that you said, and clearly for you it’s common knowledge. You know, you’ve been in and out of this all the whole time. You painted a strong definition there between a product and code. What’s the boundary between those two things? I mean, I think I can encapsulate, I just want to be clear that the audience know. What’s the difference between product and code businesses, if you know what I mean?

[00:19:33] Matt Cromwell: Let’s go back to when you said, I’m building my website and I have a problem that needs to be solved, and I see this plugin and it solves my problem. And I installed it, or I bought it and I installed it and it worked. That process that you went through, all of those things that you said, you never once said, I inspected the code to figure out if it was good enough or not. You never once said that. All of the things that convinced you to use that product had nothing to do with the code at all.

You went to the website and there was marketing involved that told you that we know what your problem is, and we know how to solve it. And there was a checkout experience that was calm and soothing enough and giving you enough confidence that they’re not just stealing your money. Then you installed the product and there was a user experience involved that made you feel like it’s actually going to solve your problem, and then it did actually solve your problem. All of those things cannot happen without code, but that is what a product does. And that’s a product experience, is the whole entire customer journey that happens from discovery, to purchase, to adoption is what a product is actually made of.

[00:20:43] Nathan Wrigley: So I’m going to infer from that then that from the year 2026 and onwards, what you are saying is that the focus now needs to be on the product. More than ever, the product and the way that you market the product and the way that you pitch the product, and all of the things that wrap around the sales process and the discovery process of the product. That’s where a significant amount of the effort needs to go once the code is in place. Have I parsed that correctly?

[00:21:11] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, I might even go at it from the perspective of the customer because you only understand the product when you look at that whole thing through the lens of the customer. If you think about everything from, oh, I can build that, I just need to pipe these APIs and do this kind of thing, and then you get the outcome, it’s like, well that’s not really what the customer’s ever going to experience.

They’re going to experience a website first. They’re going to try to have trust first. Look at the whole thing through the customer lens and then you’ll start to understand your product. I mean, you’ll understand your brand in the first place. A lot of WordPress folks don’t think about brand particularly well either. They just name it like Advanced Custom Fields. Now, I love that product. It’s a great, but it’s one of those things where like, let’s just name it what it is. Okay, I guess.

[00:22:04] Nathan Wrigley: So this is really interesting. So presumably then, if product is the way forward, it feels like you have now kind of invented a new career angle for yourself where you are going to hopefully kind of helicopter yourself in, or be helicoptered in, to businesses who maybe have got this product bit missing. You know, there are bits of that they, I don’t know, maybe they feel that they’re weak on that, or that past endeavors haven’t really worked out. Or maybe they’re at the first step of that journey and they just want to try and figure out what direction they should point themselves in to have some success.

So that’s kind of interesting. That’s the role that you are going to be taking on in the future. And I can see you nodding. Dear listener, he’s nodding away, so that’s good. But, do you have like a one size fits all template here, or is the endeavor very much to be, okay, I’m going to go in, have a long listen, figure out how you differ from the other people that are on my roster? There’s not really a question in there, but I’m kind of asking you how you are going to position yourself for the different clients that you’re no doubt going to be taking on.

[00:23:06] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, yeah, Well, one thing I’ll caveat a little bit is I’m trying to position myself towards two related audiences. The primary one, for the fractional CGO, is the teams. Product shops that are a team of people. A small team, medium sized team. They’ve built something, it’s successful, they are paying employees, but they’re looking for that next level up, in order to start growing into what they hope to be, more sustainable growth in the long term.

The other one is what I call the solo lab, where I am trying to position more towards solo individual founders who are by themselves and maybe just got their product out the door and are trying to grow from the ground up. That’s more of like a coaching environment and it’s a group environment and things like that. But both of them are, it’s not that there’s a, I don’t believe really in playbooks. I don’t believe in silver bullets. I believe in process and diligence.

And that’s what I am trying to bring in both of those circumstances is I help the solo folks understand the type of activities that they have to force themselves to do. The solo folks typically are very dev oriented. They know how to build more things. And if you ask them to write a blog post, they’re like, okay, I’ll do that tomorrow and tomorrow never comes. You know, helping them to focus on the work that they have to do to grow their product.

While the teams, it’s more generally about, they have founders who have done all the things. They have been the dev, they have been the HR lead, they have been the marketer, they have been the support guru. They’ve done all of it, and they’re just tired. And they need the growth but there’s just a missing gap. They need somebody to kind of put on the hat of, you are going to be responsible for finding growth in this team, so that that founder can focus more on other parts, the things that energise them more.

[00:24:59] Nathan Wrigley: I’m curious as to whether or not, when you were doing the busy work of being at GiveWP and then StellarWP, whether you drew the intuitions that you are now going to be helping people with. Whether you were aware of this in your head, or it was just the busy work that you were doing. You know, day in, day out, you do this task and over the decade or more that you were doing it, you just kind of perfected it. And, okay, when this thing arises, I do this thing. And when this thing arises, I do this thing.

Now I expect you’re in that curious position where you are having to lift yourself away from the whole process, stare back at it, and sort of examine how you would do it with a third party. Again, there’s no real question there, but I’m curious as to how different that is for you being the outsider, but relying on the insider knowledge that you must have acquired over time.

[00:25:49] Matt Cromwell: Yeah. I think that’s one of the reasons why I felt a certain amount of confidence in moving in this direction is because I’m helping people that are in the position I was in years ago. I’ve been there and I have done that, and I have absolutely failed. And I don’t have a perfect record or a perfect playbook, but I know what it’s like, and I have done the hard work to see successes.

I think what also makes my experience a little bit unique is that I had the experience of GiveWP and I honestly, going into being acquired and working at Liquid Web, I had that whole feeling of like, what if I’m a one hit wonder? What if I like did a great job with Give, but I try to apply this anywhere else and it just is like, well you got lucky with Give, that doesn’t work anywhere else? And it turns out that most of the things that I learned can be applied to other products with success as well. It does give me a fair amount of confidence that I do believe I can be helpful with these other shops.

[00:26:50] Nathan Wrigley: You’re not sort of saying there’s a formula, you know, that kind of snake oil mentality. But there are wise things to do and less wise things to do. Let’s just put it that way. And by repeating the wise things over and over again, you give yourself kind of a fighting.

[00:27:05] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, and there’s a process and there’s also the ability to form smart priorities. That’s, I think, a lot of what I’m trying to help provide is being able to help founders learn how to say no to a lot of things. Because sometimes, especially when it comes to anything that’s growth oriented or marketing oriented, we see a million opportunities. And so then we start dabbling in all the things because we don’t know what else to do.

We’re like, oh, there’s like, I can go and jump into Reddit and find a whole bunch of leads, or I can like spend a bunch of time on LinkedIn, or I could write a whole bunch of really good emails, or I can maybe do a paid ad campaign. And then we start doing just like a million small things. But that doesn’t lead to growth, you know? So the ability to prioritise around growing rather than noise and activity.

[00:27:57] Nathan Wrigley: I think it’s just really nice to be able to put down the scatter gun. You know, that thing that you’re firing tiny pellets in a million different directions. But you put the scatter gun down because somebody says, put the gun down because that’s not effective, and here’s why it’s not effective, and here’s some things that you could do to try which might be more effective.

There’s just something nice in listening to the words of wisdom coming out of somebody else’s mouth who’s obviously been there, done that. It’s kind of hard to put that into words, but just knowing that somebody’s got your back, and that somebody’s been through that before. And the million, gazillion little things that you are trying without a great deal of success are things that you can put away and listen to your advice.

I feel that you’ve hit a real vein of, well, let’s go fruit. You’ve got that in the title of your business. And the reason I say that, and I’ve said this in this podcast a few times before, it really does feel like there are an awful lot of people who have done the code side of things in our ecosystem. They are, as you’ve described, you know, you used the word nerd or something like that. They have built this thing with very little thought for the business side of it because WordPress, for many people, has been like this sort of hobby thing, this passive income thing, this side gig kind of thing. But they don’t know how to do it. And I get email, no doubt you get email, and certainly will be getting email, about this kind of thing. And so I feel that there is a real undercurrent of people who hopefully will tap into your service. Let’s hope so anyway.

[00:29:29] Matt Cromwell: Yeah, let’s hope so. So far, so good. I’ve already secured a couple folks.

[00:29:33] Nathan Wrigley: In which case, we’re sort of around the half an hour mark, which is exactly perfect. So I will just point the people to the domain once more. It is rootsandfruit.com. Go check that out. Where would we find you, apart from the contact us form, which no doubt exists on that website? Where might we find you elsewhere online, Matt?

[00:29:52] Matt Cromwell: I have been on LinkedIn a lot. So look for Matt Cromwell on LinkedIn. You can also look for Roots & Fruit on LinkedIn. That’s kind of where I prefer, but I’m also on the nefarious x.com as learnwithmattc.

[00:30:06] Nathan Wrigley: Well, good luck with the new adventure, Matt. I really hope it works out well and, yeah, speak to you soon.

[00:30:12] Matt Cromwell: Thanks.

[00:00:19] Nathan Wrigley: Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.

Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, the hidden settings page you never knew existed, options.php.

If you’d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast, player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.

If you have a topic that you’d like us to feature on the podcast, I’m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox and use the form there.

So on the podcast today we have Russell Aaron. Russell is a longtime WordPress enthusiast, power user since 2004, and developer since 2011. He’s organized WordCamp Las Vegas, played a key role in the Las Vegas WordPress meetup group for years, and is dedicated to helping beginners find their feet in the WordPress world. Support has been his main focus throughout his career, always keeping the needs of newcomers in mind.

If you’ve ever wondered about the lesser known corners of the WordPress admin, today’s episode will be right up your street. Russell introduces a hidden feature, the little explored options which is accessible from your site’s WP admin area. Many seasoned users, including myself, have never heard of it, but this page exposes the entirety of your WordPress options table in an editable format. We talk about what this page does, why it exists, and the ways it can be both helpful and hazardous.

Russell shares his own use cases, how it can be useful for plugin development and database management, but we also discuss concerns around its discoverability, and the risks of making changes without understanding the consequences.

It’s a short episode, but there’s a lot in here for anyone curious about WordPress’ inner workings, or eager to learn about hidden tools that most people don’t stumble upon. So if you fancy poking around behind the scenes, or have ever wondered what might be right under your nose in WordPress, this episode is for you.

If you’re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you can find all the other episodes as well.

And so without further delay, I bring you. Russell Aaron.

I am joined on the podcast by Russell Aaron. Hello Russell.

[00:03:02] Russell Aaron: Hello. Thank you.

[00:03:03] Nathan Wrigley: You are very welcome. I didn’t know Russell until just a few minutes ago, but we’ve probably spent, I don’t know, 20 minutes or so already, just shooting the breeze. And I’m getting to know you a little bit. But it’s an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

I put a tweet out, or whatever you call it on X these days, a couple of days ago, asking if anybody had an interesting topic. And what you are going to hear about today is what Russell came back with, and I had no idea this thing existed. So let’s get into that in a minute, but it’s very curious. Stay tuned.

But Russell, would you mind just telling us a little bit about your, what I now know is a long and storied history with WordPress. Just tell us all about yourself.

[00:03:40] Russell Aaron: Sure. My name is Russell Aaron. Nice to meet everyone. I’m a WordPress enthusiast and a fan, first and foremost. That is what keeps me coming back to WordPress every day. I’ve been a power user since 2004. I’ve been a developer since 2011. I organised WordCamp Las Vegas 2015 and then our meetup, I was a co-organiser from 2011 all the way up to 2018 or so. So I’ve been around, I’ve spoken at many WordCamps and stuff like that.

I’ve worked at all the places, all the things. I mean, you know, yet another WordPress developer shop is just like the plugins, yet another, whatever. But I’ve mostly been doing support for my entire WordPress career. And I always like to take things back, even though I’ve been using it for X amount of years, I still like to learn what it’s like to be a beginner walking into WordPress. Because no matter what, we always have beginners coming in and they need help. They need to be pointed, where to go, who to see. And I kind of own that side of the world when it comes to like what I do. I’m very beginner friendly.

[00:04:52] Nathan Wrigley: Do you still get the same excitement? I remember the first time I ever opened up WordPress, which was probably something like 2014, something like that. So I was definitely not right at the beginning. I was much later to the party than a lot of people. But I’d been using Drupal and Magento and things like that.

I remember getting really excited, like genuinely looking around thinking, oh, and it can do this. And then, you know, a week later, oh, and it can do this. And on and on that went. At some point, that level of curiosity, it never really left me, but I kind of managed to learn the things I needed to learn. But then that was just because I was doing stuff that I needed to do.

But if you’re in a role where you communicate with customers, presumably that’s a never ending conveyor belt of new things that you’re constantly having to learn, because some curious person comes up and says, I’ve broken it in this way, and you’ve got to figure all that out. So long question, but are you still excited about it?

[00:05:42] Russell Aaron: I’ve had this saying, and I say it every day when I sit down is, the hardest thing I have to do is log into WP admin. From there, I’ll figure everything else out. Make a backup is number one. Second thing is, the hardest thing I have to do is log into WP Admin. And you know what really gets me excited is, you know, you have a blog, I have a blog, and essentially we do the same thing, but underneath the hood, how we got to the same point, those are different paths. You use this caching plugin, I use this caching plugin. You use Yoast, I use Rank Math. So the different configurations and stuff like that, that’s what keeps me coming back. And that’s why I’m in support.

[00:06:22] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, this almost kind of infinite permutations of ways that you can do WordPress. And I guess if you’re like me and you’re just using it on a few sites, that’s fairly trivial. But if you, like you, you’re having to support every possible permutation, oh.

Okay, so as I said, I went out on X and I suggested that if anybody would like to get in touch and put themselves on the WP Tavern Jukebox Podcast, fire me a message back. And very quickly Russell came to me with this. And I have no idea, I had no idea that this was even a thing.

Like I said, I’ve been using WordPress for over a decade. I didn’t know there was a page that you can navigate to, once you are logged into the WP Admin. So, okay, we’ve logged in, and then if you append options.php to the end of your WP admin URL, so example.com/wp-admin/options.php. Maybe pause the podcast. If you’re logged in, go there, click return, then move away from the keyboard.

[00:07:24] Russell Aaron: Yeah, don’t touch it.

[00:07:25] Nathan Wrigley: Don’t touch the keyboard. I didn’t know this existed. Tell us, what the heck is this?

[00:07:31] Russell Aaron: I mean, just like you, you know, I’ve been knee deep in WordPress and installing it when it was the famous five minute install, you know, and Custom Post Types before they were cool. And still, same thing is, it was something that was shown to me a very, very long time ago. But what I like to imagine is that WordPress, when it first got started, it was always user forward, so they wanted to show you either what was on the page or what was in the Post. And so options PHP, or wp-admin/options with an s, you have to add the s, but .php, it basically spits out your entire options table.

So from your database, it spits out your entire options table onto one page. And I mean, depending on how big your options table is, you can have a very small page or, you know, I’m still scrolling. I can doom scroll on my options page and just keep going. But it’s one of those things that I believe was there from the beginning to help you see maybe some information that’s in your database and then, you know, like you could tweak things. And then a database admin, or whatever tools you have on your host to see your database, you know, stuff like that came out. And I think it’s one of those legacy features that’s just always been there, but it gets ignored all the time.

[00:08:58] Nathan Wrigley: No kidding. I mean, basically I’m looking at, not a vanilla WordPress website, but I’m looking at a WordPress website with a third party block-based theme, and maybe four plugins. And the four plugins are not that heavy, as far as I’m concerned. But it says, so I navigated to that in that website. And the page is just entitled, all settings. And then underneath that is the warning. So I shall read that out because this is important.

[00:09:21] Russell Aaron: That should be giant H1. Like, I don’t know what a 235 pixel font looks like, it should be that.

[00:09:28] Nathan Wrigley: Blinking as well. It says, this page allows direct access to your site settings, you can break things here. Please be cautious. And then it’s just two columns. On the left it’s just the name of the key. And then on the other side, the value. And so it’s just a list of things on one side, a list of things on the other. Now obviously the key is uneditable. It just shows it to you. But more or less, now that’s not entirely the case, but more or less every value is editable, meaning that, I don’t know, if some of this was particularly important. Let’s start at the top. I’ve got the admin email. You know, if I change that I’m going to lock myself out if I don’t remember what I’m doing.

[00:10:07] Russell Aaron: Or emails are going to go to the wrong place.

[00:10:08] Nathan Wrigley: Emails are going to go to the wrong place. And then it goes down, and you’ve basically dumped yourself in the options table. So it’s like you’re in, I don’t know, some sort of database manager, phpMyAdmin or something like that. But there it is inside of WordPress.

Now you mentioned it’s probably a legacy. Do you think it should be here anymore? Because so much of this is exposed in such an easy to fiddle way, that it strikes me that somebody could easily go in here, not really know what they’re doing, amend something, delete something, click return, and bork the website entirely.

[00:10:43] Russell Aaron: I mean, it’s not a bad idea. If you have a database plugin and it’s active, and for whatever reason that lets some kind of intrusion in, yeah, somebody could get into that information and start wreaking some havoc. And so it would be one of those things where, maybe it should be optionable or maybe it should be stepped into a plugin itself.

But I mean, I’m also not against it either. For what it’s done, I’ve never really heard of this page being the cause for whatever malware or whatever Core file is being overwritten. Like it’s usually, knock on wood, it’s usually a plugin that allowed some kind of intrusion or just a bad code that allowed something, and it’s never really been like, well, this site was hacked and it went to this file.

So it seems to be okay. But it’s probably, what I would say is it’s the biggest difference. Because like when you write a plugin and you submit it to wordpress.org, they’re going to go through it with a fine tooth comb and they’re just going to make sure that things are working. They want a tool tip or they want some kind of explanation of like, what this field does. But you go here to this page and it’s just kind of key, pair, and it doesn’t say like, well, this value comes from here, or changing this. Like, there’s no information on it whatsoever, you know? It’s one of those things where like, I see WordPress has a default standardisation of how they want things done, but then you come to this page and none of it’s there.

[00:12:14] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, so as an example, so if you scroll down, I’ve just literally scrolled down and there’s hundreds and hundreds of entries. And I’ve ended up at fresh_site. Now that has zero, a value of zero. I have no idea what that does. I don’t know what would happen if I turned the zero into a one, but there it is. Right above it is finished updating comment type. That’s got a one. And you are right, there’s absolutely no text in any of the fields to give you any indication.

[00:12:43] Russell Aaron: Other than like site URL like, you know, you kind of know what that is. But everything else, yeah. Unless you kind of know what that key, or what that pair is supposed to be, yeah, you really have no idea.

[00:12:53] Nathan Wrigley: And there’s no way of knowing that other than presumably going out and finding it. And so that in itself is quite curious. Just the idea that this entire list of things doesn’t give you some sort of helping hand to kind of say, okay, this one in particular, be mindful of this one. This one’s very important, or at least, here’s what it does. There’s none of that. So it’s just curious.

[00:13:13] Russell Aaron: Well, I mean even with the Core post types that come with the Core install, they have that documented. I think there’s seven now, Core post types. And out of seven of those, three are hidden, you know? You have the menu stuff. And even that, I wouldn’t expect it, but I would say that when you install just a very basic install WordPress, you set it up for the first time, no themes, no plugin, you just spun it up.

At least that page should say all the default stuff that’s there. When the database gets created, wp-options table is created, these values go in. I would maybe hope that a default thing of just says like, this is a default field, or this is a default option that gets installed and here’s what it does. But again, there’s just none of that.

[00:13:59] Nathan Wrigley: No, no. So again, caveat emptor. Right at the top, obey the warning. Don’t modify anything in here.

[00:14:04] Russell Aaron: Right. Mind the gap, that’s for sure.

[00:14:06] Nathan Wrigley: Well, I say don’t modify anything. Presumably it’s there so that things can be modified. And so I guess my question to you is, you’ve brought this to my attention, have you found a use for this? Have you ever been in there and, is it like a daily thing that you are fiddling with? What’s the purpose?

[00:14:22] Russell Aaron: I can tell you my use case. And I think for me, it’s not being lazy, but I don’t want to have a SQL program running on my computer, or I don’t want to have phpMyAdmin up, and I have to refresh and go to page two to find my option or whatever. What I like is that I have been rebuilding some of my plugins. And some of my plugins set options. And so when you deactivate my plugin, I have a uninstall.php file that should remove information from the database, right?

So that’s where I go to check, is my plugin doing its job? Well, let’s go look for this option name. And if I uninstalled and deactivated my plugin and it’s fully gone, but I still see whatever option name, I know my uninstall PHP file didn’t do its job. That’s the biggest use case I have.

I have a local site for everything that I develop, like my personal website, I have a local site. All my .org plugins, I have a local site for that where I do development. And that’s the same thing is, I use that option thing and okay, did I set my option? Do I see it? Okay, there it is. Here’s what I see it in the database. Here’s what I can query against. Like, it gives you all that information. All you have to do is one refresh. You don’t have to rebuild your database or go searching through it in like a MySQL kind of program. It’s all just spit out there and you really just, you know, find search and stuff like that. That’s my use case for it.

[00:15:58] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, there’s no search or filter anything in there. You would have to use the browser search to find the thing that you need. But that’s a really interesting use case of it. And also, thank you for having that feature in your plugins whereby you actually remove the data in the database that, obviously, at the point of uninstall is no longer required. I know why people leave that stuff there, but also it’s quite nice that you make it so that it doesn’t remain.

[00:16:21] Russell Aaron: That’s one of those interesting arguments. If I accidentally deactivate WooCommerce, I don’t want my stuff gone. So that shouldn’t have it, but my tiny little plugin that I built for a contest 10 years ago, it should probably remove it’s stuff.

[00:16:34] Nathan Wrigley: So obviously you can see that, but again, there’s no way of searching for things. You’d have to manually search through the browser and what have you. Now, the curious thing is, I’ve never stumbled across this, and I’ve clicked every single link in a WordPress install. There’s no doubt I’ve clicked every link multiple times over and over again. Presumably this is not linked from anywhere within the WP Admin at all. And yet when you land on it, the sidebar, the WP admin sidebar ends up at settings, so the settings is highlighted.

[00:17:05] Russell Aaron: And settings is expanded.

[00:17:08] Nathan Wrigley: Settings is expanded, but it’s not, you know, it’s not a child item which suddenly appears. It’s just settings. So is that true? It’s not linked anywhere.

[00:17:15] Russell Aaron: Not that I have found anywhere. Other than people like you and me talking about this, it’s not very spoken about. It’s kind of one of those things where if you know then you know, or if somebody like myself is a developer, they can say, oh yeah, hey, there’s this other thing. But other than that, I mean, it tends to be skipped over from a beginner perspective.

Like you said, you’ve been using WordPress for 10 plus years at least. Never been there before. Didn’t even know this thing existed. Now you’re kind of like, what else is there that I don’t know.

[00:17:48] Nathan Wrigley: That is exactly where my head has gone, is what else is there that I don’t know about? You know, other curious things that are there.

[00:17:53] Russell Aaron: Is there a gold pot at the end of the rainbow? We don’t know.

[00:17:57] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, some little Easter egg that I never spotted that’s somewhere buried in a menu. Yeah, that would be kind of cool.

[00:18:01] Russell Aaron: What if you go to that page and there’s a coupon code for Gravity Forms and it says like, free updates for life because you visited here.

[00:18:09] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that’s a great idea. Yeah, okay, so developers hijack this page and add those. No, don’t. Don’t do that. But you were saying earlier that the fact that nobody is really talking about it, I suppose that leads us into the idea that, it’s not really a problem. If this was exposing problems that, let’s say for example, I don’t know, hackers were leveraging, I don’t know quite how they would do that, but you know what I mean. Then presumably this would’ve been pulled out years and years ago because it would be easy to remove this. But presumably it doesn’t have a great attack surface. It’s not widely known about. This is the first time I’ve heard about it, so there it is. It’s going to stay, I presume.

[00:18:47] Russell Aaron: I always make the joke that it’s the largest form in WordPress.

[00:18:51] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it really is.

[00:18:53] Russell Aaron: I mean, that’s all it is. It’s a giant form that pulls data. And, you know, you can hit save at the bottom. So it’s the biggest non Gravity Form that you can have in WordPress.

[00:19:03] Nathan Wrigley: Do you know if it’s possible for, so for example, the site that I’m logged into, I am an administrator. That’s the account that I’ve got. So the level of permissions is equal to administrator. I’m wondering how far this goes down. So, for example, I don’t know, if I’m a contributor or a subscriber or an editor, I’m guessing that this wouldn’t be available, but I don’t know if you know the answer to that.

[00:19:24] Russell Aaron: It’s only, you have to have the manage options permission, which I think is tied to administrator, and I think that’s about it.

[00:19:32] Nathan Wrigley: So in that sense it is also, I suppose, fairly secure because it’s hidden behind an administrator account. And by the time an administrator account.

[00:19:41] Russell Aaron: If logged in and administrator is true, yeah.

[00:19:43] Nathan Wrigley: Right. So you can more or less kill the site if you wish to, of your own volition by going to the, and I’m doing air quotes, the normal settings anyway.

[00:19:51] Russell Aaron: At that point, you can’t complain. You’re an admin. You did it yourself, you know.

[00:19:54] Nathan Wrigley: Do you know if, this isn’t something curious that sort of hopped in like the last five years, six years, something like that? Do you know if this has a history which goes back right to the beginning of WordPress?

[00:20:06] Russell Aaron: I would be curious to go figure out when this file was introduced. I want to say, like, if I had to guess, I think it’s at least in 2.0. It might go further back. 2.3 is when I started using WordPress. So I mean, as far as I know, I think it’s that far, but I haven’t actually dove back to see like, when it was introduced.

[00:20:28] Nathan Wrigley: Have you ever used it and killed a site accidentally?

[00:20:33] Russell Aaron: Yes.

[00:20:33] Nathan Wrigley: Oh, you have. Oh, go on, tell us. What did you do?

[00:20:35] Russell Aaron: So, I see this argument all the time where it is, you know, too many plugins, slow your site down or whatever. There’s actually an option in your database and it, you know, when you activate a plugin, there’s this wide array, it says akismet-1, so it’s active. And then it says jetpack-0, so it’s not active.

And so it tells you what’s an active plugin and what’s not. And I’ve gone in there and I’ve thought, oh, I’ll just change this value or, can I activate a plugin just by changing this value? And it’s one of those things where, whoops, probably forgot a comma or forgot a period somewhere. I mean, it’s very finicky. I mean, it’s the same thing as editing your database. If you go in there and you make a mistake in your database, it’s going to blow up the site. Same thing with this.

[00:21:30] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, the curious thing about the database, I suppose though, is that obviously not many inexperienced people presumably would be given an administrator account. So there’s that.

[00:21:38] Russell Aaron: Hopefully.

[00:21:38] Nathan Wrigley: But also they’re never, well, okay, alright. Yeah, I’ll take that back immediately. Well, okay, in an ideal world, an administrator account would not be given to somebody inexperienced. Plus the fact that almost nobody, until now, knew that this whole thing existed. And I bet I get loads of emails saying, we’ve known about this, Nathan, forever. It’s just you that didn’t know about it.

[00:21:59] Russell Aaron: No, this is one of those things where like, you show up to WordCamp US and it’s like, what do you know that I don’t know? And you go, have you ever been to options.php? And then people are like, wait, what? It’s one of those things where like, look at the big brain on Russ, it’s one of those kind of things.

[00:22:16] Nathan Wrigley: There’s a cabal of just me and you now, and then anybody who’s listened to this podcast. But also, the inexperienced user, presumably wouldn’t have the access to the tooling to use a database tool. So that’s why I find this so amazingly curious, that essentially you’ve just completely listed out everything in an editor. I mean, I could understand it if it just showed what the content of that.

[00:22:37] Russell Aaron: Just read only?

[00:22:37] Nathan Wrigley: Right, just show what it is and then you could go into a database tool and amend it if you needed to. But the fact that almost everything is editable and saveable, that is the bit that I find so curious.

Do you know of other things like this, or is this the only one? What I mean by that is, any curious, hidden Easter egg, strange things inside of WordPress, or is this the one and only?

[00:22:59] Russell Aaron: Sure, sure. I mean, as far as I know, I mean there’s other block visibility controls and stuff like that, that aren’t really displayed anywhere. It’s not like you can make those adjustments. But I mean, as far as I know, you know, like that’s all controlled by either the code in a plugin, or by a Core file, or it’s in the options. So I mean, you have both worlds right here. You have a Core file in WordPress showing you your database. This is kind of where it all is.

I would also say that I’ve spent many moons looking for my Gravity Forms license or, why is this not updating or whatever? And this is one of those things where, if you’re looking in a database, it’s all kind of black and white, squished, and it’s like tiny little tables that are off color. At least with this, there’s a margin, there’s some padding around things, there’s some gaps. So it’s kind of more user friendly than a database would be.

[00:24:00] Nathan Wrigley: Actually that’s a curious way of thinking about it, isn’t it? Because you’re right. If you do go into.

[00:24:05] Russell Aaron: You go into phpMyAdmin you’re kind of like.

[00:24:07] Nathan Wrigley: It’s not pretty. There are definitely some tools that you can have that make a database a pleasure to look at, but most of the ones that we’re all familiar with, that we use day in, day out, you’re right, they’re hard to use. Also, they have curious dropdowns and inadvertently, you click return on something and suddenly you’ve dropped the table entirely, and we’re in a bit of trouble. So this is at least easy to see.

I think we’ve probably used up all the oxygen in terms of this. I’m going to encourage you to go and have a poke around.

[00:24:34] Russell Aaron: It’s multi-site as well too, so if you go to a multi-site, you can’t see, like if you go into the backend, it’s per site. So it’s not every database option for the multi-site. But if you go into just the actual network site, yeah, then you could see all that there.

[00:24:50] Nathan Wrigley: So I’m going to encourage people to go and have a little poke around, but I’m also not going to encourage you, don’t fiddle with anything. Just leave every single field exactly as you saw it. It’s example.com, so your domain.com, whatever that would be /wp-admin/options, with an S so plural php.

Go and have a look, and I’d be very curious, if you’ve got anything that you think is interesting in there, or indeed you’ve also found something in the same way that Russell has which is unexpected and unknown. I’d be very curious to hear about that, and maybe we can get you on a podcast episode as well.

So, Russell, thank you so much for enlightening me. What a peculiar episode that was. I really appreciate it.

[00:25:30] Russell Aaron: I appreciate you putting it out there. Like, blow my mind, what do you have? And I’m glad that I can at least register that in some sort of of way.

[00:25:38] Nathan Wrigley: There’s always something new, and this definitely was something new. Thank you, Russell.

[00:25:41] Russell Aaron: Thank you.

[00:00:19] Nathan Wrigley: Welcome to the Jukebox Podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.

Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case Elementor’s decade of growth and its future plans with AI.

If you’d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast, and you can copy that URL into most podcast players.

If you have a topic that you’d like us to feature on the podcast, I’m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.

So on the podcast today we have Miriam Schwab. Miriam has been deeply immersed in the WordPress ecosystem for around two decades. Starting out offering WordPress as a service, she went on to lead a custom WordPress agency serving major tech companies and nonprofits before founding the startup Strattic, pioneering static WordPress architecture. After Strattic’s acquisition by Elementor in 2022, Miriam took the role of Head of WordPress acting as the key liaison between Elementor and the wider WordPress community.

Elementor growth over the last decade has been prolific. Miriam says that it now powers over 13% of the entire web. She gives insights into the challenges and responsibilities that come with maintaining such a large user base, especially around major updates and backwards compatibility.

Much of our conversation centers around the rise of AI in WordPress, from built in AI tools for generating images and content to the standalone Angie plugin that introduces agentic AI capabilities across WordPress. Miriam outlines Elementor’s multi-pronged approach to innovation, talking about how their Site Planner tool uses conversational AI to guide beginners and professionals from an idea all the way to a wire framed website. And how the upcoming AI integrations promise even more granular design control.

Miriam also shares her perspectives on how the new Abilities API is set to change what’s possible inside WordPress, and what this means for developers, designers, and support teams navigating the complexities of AI driven workflows.

For those interested in how AI is shaping the future of WordPress, Elementor’s strategy, and the evolving role of creators within this ecosystem, this episode is for you.

If you’d like to find out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you’ll find all the other episodes as well.

And so without further delay, I bring you Miriam Schwab.

I am joined on the podcast by Miriam Schwab. Hello Miriam.

[00:03:23] Miriam Schwab: Hi.

[00:03:24] Nathan Wrigley: Nice to have you with us. Now, dear listener, I have to be very grateful to Miriam because about three weeks ago we tried to capture this exact podcast. In fact, we did. We captured this exact podcast. Unfortunately, the tech failed and Miriam’s audio was entirely silent. So we had a nice long conversation, Miriam divulged her experience and wisdom, and I got to put it out on the podcast and there was nothing there. It was completely blank. So firstly, an apology for that. And secondly, enormous thanks for coming back and talking to me.

[00:03:54] Miriam Schwab: Well, I have to thank you for giving this another shot because I have a feeling that the technical difficulties were also on my side. So thank you for giving this another go.

[00:04:03] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, well, I appreciate it. So Miriam has a long and storied history in WordPress. She’s working with Elementor at the moment, but the story goes back way further than that. Let’s just do the little potted bio at the beginning, Miriam. Just tell us a, just a short version of who you are in the WordPress space, and what you’ve achieved in the past.

[00:04:20] Miriam Schwab: Okay, so about 20 years ago, I discovered WordPress. Loved it, decided to work with it, started offering it as a service. Eventually that expanded into being an agency, and working on custom implementations of WordPress for tech companies and large nonprofits, which was a lot of fun and a great learning experience.

Did that for about 13 years. Sold the agency and founded a startup based on one of the many ideas I had had over the years. I had many ideas for products over the years, but I knew that I needed to make sure I wasn’t over spending my abilities, like between family and work and everything.

But I got to the stage where I was like, okay, I can do this. And I actually really loved the idea. So I founded a startup that was called Strattic. It published WordPress websites in a static architecture while retaining dynamic capabilities. And by doing that, it solved pretty much all the issues related to speed security and scalability. Raised venture capital funding for it, and it was acquired by Elementor in June, 2022.

And after joining Elementor, continued to lead the Strattic team for about six months, and then they offered me this new position that hadn’t existed before. Initially, we called it the Head of WordPress Relations, and then it evolved to just being called Head of WordPress, where I act as a liaison between Elementor and the broader WordPress community on many levels. Practically, strategically, community, like you name it and I’m probably doing it. So that’s a bit about me.

[00:05:43] Nathan Wrigley: Do you have like a job description? Because when you say sort of Head of WordPress, there really seems to be almost no bounds in terms of the WordPress and Elementor connection. Do you have constraints on what is out of bounds? Or is it literally anything that’s connected with WordPress comes under your purview?

[00:05:57] Miriam Schwab: It is literally anything, pretty much. It suits me because I was the CEO of two companies, right? I led them. So I have an entrepreneurial character, I guess you could say. And I’ve always been involved in a lot of aspects of the businesses that I’ve been running, and I like that. I actually like to be involved in marketing and sales and even the financial side of things, and internal and external and all that kind of stuff. So it allows me to continue to embrace that side of me, even though I’m now like corporate. And I really appreciate that Elementor allows me that flexibility. It keeps the work that I do very interesting.

[00:06:33] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I’ll bet. And you’ve always me as an extremely curious person, who likes to be busy, let’s put it that way.

Does Elementor continue to grow? I mean, I guess Elementor for me feels like it’s coming up to a decade old or something along those lines.

[00:06:48] Miriam Schwab: Yes, exactly. June is going to be 10 years since it was founded. We’re in our 10th year now, like heading up to it.

[00:06:53] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, and when it began, the plugin offered an incredibly valuable free version. And this was a real good way of kind of promoting growth because page builders were becoming all the rage at that point, and the market was already becoming saturated. But Elementor managed to put some daylight between themselves and the competitors because of the fully rounded free version. And then obviously, you know, built the pro version on top of that.

And then when you chart the numbers of WordPress’s growth over the last decade, I don’t know what the exact numbers are, perhaps you can fill us in on that, but it feels like quite a bit of the WordPress growth, so WordPress generally, that 43% figure that we constantly like to refer to, it feels like quite a bit of that belongs, well, not belongs, but you know what I mean, is because of the popularity of Elementor. So the growth was meteoric. And I don’t know how that’s carried on, whether the line continues that trajectory, or whether it’s kind of flat lined, but still growing. Can we just get into that a bit?

[00:07:50] Miriam Schwab: After Elementor was launched, it really quickly reached a million active installs, I think within a year or something because it was the right, very much the right product at the right time, bringing a lot of value to users. And like you mentioned, like with the free version, for sure, that definitely helped power its growth and adoption. But also because it was a valuable, and is a valuable product for web builders to use.

In terms of the growth, so amazingly, Elementor’s adoption continues to grow. So you know W3Techs? Every year they publish like top stuff. And the various categories is based on the absolute number of sites that that particular technology accrued over the course of 2025. For the third year running, Elementor was given the title of Top Content Management System by W3Techs, beating out Wix and Shopify and WordPress. WordPress was the winner for many years.

And I’m not privy to the exact numbers or their exact calculations, but based on what they say, if Elementor is the top CMS, it’s because over the course of 2025, it’s usage base grew by more websites than those other platforms grew, which is wild. And like there, they even states, I think Elementor started off 2025 with 11.7% of the internet, and ended off 2025 with 13.1% of the internet.

[00:09:12] Nathan Wrigley: Wait. Do that again.

[00:09:13] Miriam Schwab: Of the entire web, yes, of the web. Not WordPress.

[00:09:17] Nathan Wrigley: We use the 43% figure to be WordPress. So that same kind of sentence, but substitute Elementor for the word WordPress in there. 13%?

[00:09:27] Miriam Schwab: Yeah, over 13%. So over the course of 2025, Elementor continued to grow at a very significant pace. So Elementor is still growing.

[00:09:36] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that’s remarkable. Do you know if that’s because of new adoption or is that that the current users of the platform, you know, who have a license for multiple sites and what have you, are just using it more and more, so that number kind of creeps up? So I guess the question there is, do you have a growing user base or is it just more broad use by your current user base?

[00:09:54] Miriam Schwab: Our current user base definitely contributes to growth, but by our estimation, we grew by something like three and a half million sites over the course of 2025. So a significant number of those sites are new. New users, or new sites, or whatever, that kind of thing.

[00:10:12] Nathan Wrigley: What a phenomenal story that, I mean it is the story really inside of the WordPress space over the last decade. I presume there’s nothing that can touch those kind of stats. That’s really remarkable. And I suppose it’s a blessing and also a curse. And what I mean by that is, you’ve got this giant platform, enormous user base, but I suppose it also means that anything that you do with the Elementor platform, there’s a lot of care that needs to be taken on every single update. So if you’re going to update to the 4.0 version, which you recently did, big overhaul, but a big user base to get annoyed if things go wrong. So I guess a lot of care and attention required because of your popularity.

[00:10:52] Miriam Schwab: Yeah. Backwards compatibility, you know, it’s a very important aspect of WordPress development in general. So at Elementor it’s the same. It’s super critical in terms of every update that we push out, determining how far back we’re going to support things, et cetera. So every version that goes out, it has to be super duper QA’d.

And even so, you know what WordPress is like, it’s like the wild west. Every site is like a snowflake. It has its own combination of themes, plugins, server configuration, PHP version, you know what I mean? Like, good luck with that. But the team does an amazing job of really managing to make sure that pretty much every version doesn’t cause issues.

And with regards to version four, that is an overhaul. And the team, while moving ahead with creating version four, because it’ll bring a lot of value to our users and it pulls Elementor even more towards the future, it’s being done so carefully. Like every step is considered.

And in terms of how it’s being developed and also how it’s going to work in conjunction with the previous approach to Elementor. Because the assumption is, not everyone’s going to just jump over to version four. Migrating an existing site to version four may be complicated. There’s discussions around how to do that in the best way, but it may be complicated.

So even an existing site, it might have pages still built on version three and prior, while new pages will be built with version four to gain the benefits of version four. So they have to live side by side for some amount of time. It’s incredibly complicated, but it’s a really important, exciting project because, like you said, Elementor is 10 years old, which means a 10-year-old code base. That means it’s time to give it an overhaul, even with all the risk and complication involved.

[00:12:32] Nathan Wrigley: What’s the staff count that you’ve got over there now?

[00:12:34] Miriam Schwab: It’s something like 350 now, I think.

[00:12:37] Nathan Wrigley: So enormous. But again, I presume that speaks to the things that you’ve got to do. You know, if you’re going to ship a big update, you need a lot of bodies doing the coding for that. But also, you know, checking the backwards compatibility and things.

Okay, so you mentioned the future. In the year 2025, the words, well, the letters AI, I think probably were said by more people than just about anything else in the English language. Apart from maybe the word the. Everything else seems to have gone AI. If you look in the WordPress space, all of the media, all of the excitement, all of the interest, all of the everything, the oxygen is being sucked out of the room by AI, let’s put it that way.

And so Elementor, I presume, has to keep up with those current trends. What is happening over there? In terms of the page builder, and also I know there’s other ancillary products and plugins that, whilst built by you, aren’t necessarily part of that page building experience. What’s going on?

[00:13:26] Miriam Schwab: So we have like a number of approaches to AI and each one is getting a lot of attention. And while users are enthusiastic about them, we’re trying to figure out where to give them the best experience and how with AI. I think just like the whole world, we’re also working on figuring out AI and how to implement the best way possible.

But we strongly believe that WordPress must have strong AI capabilities in order to secure its future. And we want to see WordPress have a strong future for many years to come. But not only that, AI in WordPress will actually give it a big leg up and advantage over the more proprietary platforms in our opinion. So there’s like intense effort being made on our side to create amazing AI tooling in order to try to secure WordPress’s feature.

So what do we have? We have the kind of basic obvious stuff, which is, you’re in Elementor editor, you want to generate an image, here, you can generate an image with AI. You want to create copy, text, add title, all that kind of stuff, the content release stuff, there you go. HTML, CSS, okay. Kind of like check the box, pretty expected stuff.

Then we have Angie which is its own standalone plugin, which applies to all of WordPress, not just Elementor. And it gives agentic capabilities to WordPress in general. So whatever you would think an AI assistant would be able to do for you in your WordPress environment, it can pretty much do that. As we know, AI is non-deterministic. You tell it to do something and it will do it one way, and it tells you to do something else and it’ll do it the other way. So there’s a lot of guardrails being developed by our team to direct Angie to give the results that the user probably wants.

But you can do things like around managing your site, managing users, creating content, changing categories, WooCommerce management, product management, things like that. So it streamlines a lot of stuff. And the team is working on some like really exciting capabilities, which hopefully will be released soon. And then we’ll be able to talk about it. But in the meantime, it’s free to use. Anyone can go into the repo, install it, start using it, and of course we want to hear feedback about that. So that’s Angie.

And then the third approach with AI is our Site Planner. So Site Planner is a very cool tool. You chat to it, and you chat your way to a very robust website. It’s not like a one line prompt, build me a flower shop website, and then it just kind of guesses what you might want. It asks you very specific and useful questions so that it can get the fullest picture of what you want to build. And it guides you along the way by asking you the right questions, and then it generates a site for you in Elementor, and then you can export that site into your own hosting environment, or into our hosting environment, or you can download it as a zip file or whatever.

So the Site Planner can be the first stage in your AI website building journey. It takes you, let’s say from zero to 80, I would say. And then the last 20% of the site you can do with Angie, you can do manually, you can do with Elementor, you could do not with Elementor. You could do however you want, and launch your site.

So that’s pretty much what’s going on with AI. We have some more stuff coming out soon, but we’ll talk about it when we can, you know?

[00:16:39] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, so let me just reprise that and make sure I’ve understood. So the first piece of that jigsaw puzzle was the things with inside of Elementor, the page builder itself. And if we rewound the clock just five years, even though you are now saying, oh, the expected stuff, that stuff was the stuff of Star Trek. You know, oh, ask it for an image and it’ll make an image. Yeah, okay, that seems like a distant future that we’ll never reach. And yet now that’s kind of de rigueur. Everybody expects that stuff. So that’s the stuff inside of the page builder as you’d expect. Text, images and what have you.

But then you’ve got this Angie product, which if I’m parsing that correctly, enables you to leverage the abilities of WordPress. So I would like you to create me a post and assign these categories to it and publish it on this particular date. Do you know, does that leverage the sort of Abilities API, or have you done the foundational work yourselves as opposed to the Core Abilities API, which the teams have been working on more recently?

[00:17:32] Miriam Schwab: That’s a very good question. So the Angie team started building Angie at least a year ago, which was before the Abilities API was, I don’t know, even a twinkle in someones eye. So the team, in order to make Angie work, built their own tools, like it’s called tools, exposing WordPress’ capabilities, so actually invested a ton in exposing something like 200 tools in WordPress to Angie.

And not only in Angie, the team actually also did some work to expose tools in WooCommerce and ACF as like a starting point for, because they’re very popular plugins. So when the Abilities API came around, the team already had a lot that was done and also more than what the Abilities API has. The goal is to sync up with the Abilities API and leverage it. At the moment there’s still some issues, at least on our end using it. But we’re in constant communication with the WordPress AI teams and giving feedback and things like that. So hopefully we’ll be able to resolve that. But the team did build all of that themselves, which is pretty amazing.

[00:18:33] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, that is amazing. But I guess given what Elementor touches, and the fact that you’ve got that enormous staff there that can try to build that, it kind of made sense to go at that because you didn’t know that the team were working on the Abilities API. I remember when that dropped. So I’ve been covering WordPress news for, I don’t know, a decade or something like that. I remember thinking, this is probably the most consequential piece of news that I’ve ever covered.

The idea of binding AI, so AI in the scenario that you described first, where I’m in Elementor, I want an image, I’m in Elementor, I want some text. That’s interesting, but it’s really confined. There’s lots of boxes around that, there’s only a certain permutation of things that you can do. But the minute you start to bind an AI to all the things that WordPress can do, so create a user, delete a user, create a page, schedule it for this time. Oh, I don’t know. Just imagine clicking around inside the WordPress admin interface and wherever you end up, there’s a thing, there’s a box or a field to fill out, and there’s an ability that can be done by that thing.

And uncovering those and making it so that the AI agent can understand what that is, it’s very hard to me to encapsulate in English why I think that’s so impressive. But, do you know what I mean? Can you see the thread of what I’m trying to say there, how important that is?

[00:19:49] Miriam Schwab: It is super impressive. What you’re saying about AI being like, if we had thought about it five years ago, it would be amazing. Even agentic AI, everyone talks about agents as if it’s like obvious that AI can be agentic. But for quite a bit of time in the beginning, and of course AI years are like a million years.

So for the first year and a half or something of us, of the world using AI, something like that, there wasn’t even agentic AI. So the fact that there’s agentic AI, and that it can be applied to WordPress is pretty wild. And I’ll tell you why I also think it’s wild. Because WordPress is 20 years old, 23 years old, whatever it is at this point. It’s a legacy platform. And the fact that it can be, the Abilities API is a really smart approach to it because it kind of slackens the exposure of everything that’s going on behind WordPress.

Instead of needing like a million different APIs and different approaches and that every plugin’s creating their own way to integrate with WordPress. It standardises it in a way that actually is also good for development, but also is good for the AI future, because it means that the way AI will interface with WordPress is straightforward and standard enough that regardless of what the LLMs end up doing going forward, if there’s more capabilities, if we move beyond agentic to who knows what, I don’t know what, like implants in our brains, then we can still interface with WordPress even though it’s over 20 years old. I think that’s amazing. So kudos to the team for accomplishing that.

[00:21:12] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, and it was a penny that just didn’t drop for me. I saw AI as this interesting thing where it could create content, but I didn’t make the connection with all of the myriad things that WordPress could do. I just thought, okay, it’ll be inside the block editor, or it’ll be inside of Elementor or wherever it lives. That’s where the AI will belong. And then when I first read a summary of what the Abilities API was going to achieve, and that then binds to a whole other layer of APIs surrounding that, that was when the penny dropped. And I thought, okay, so basically what you’ve done there is you’ve opened the door and you’ve said, here’s all the things that a WordPress website can do. Until now, the AI was just in the interface and you could, you know, words and images and what have you. Now it’s, okay, we’ve opened the doors, now you can do the whole range of things that you’d like to do with the AI. And so it opens up all of those capabilities.

Again, the words fail me, but the import of it, the importance of it, I think only time will tell. But it feels like it’s probably one of the more important things. And again, like you said, 20 year old legacy system, there could have been a moment where the two paths split and, you know, AI became more interesting outside of WordPress, and WordPress sudden decline and what have you. But by opening the doors and saying, actually let’s just let all of the AI in and you can explore that if you wish to, kind of interesting for those people that want to.

[00:22:29] Miriam Schwab: Yeah, WordPress could have struggled to keep up with AI and we, I’m not saying it’s not a struggle. I think we’re a bit late to the AI game in general as a, like an ecosystem, which is understandable. We’re open source, things like, you know, move slower and by committee, so that’s just how it goes. But the fact that it picked itself up, the team was established and within six months of being established or something like that, it already had accomplished their four pillars of work that they had set out for themselves, is really amazing. And it’s super important for the future of WordPress, and it’s great to see that they were able to accomplish that.

[00:23:01] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, and also it feels like the moment has arrived where a lot of the people that write in the WordPress space, so content creators and what have you, they’ve sort of got this now and they’re now creating content. And some of the people that no doubt, you and I both follow, who may be writing on their own blog or on social media or what have you, there seems to have been over the last couple of months, a real, a sense that, okay, WordPress has a place. We don’t need to worry about that anymore. We’ve now got a path with this AI team. State of the Word AI team sort gathered there and pressed the big red button and all that kind of stuff. There seems to have been so much focus that it’s built itself into relevance again. And there seems to be less worry. People now writing content about the things that WordPress can do with these abilities bound to it.

Okay, so let’s move on to the third strand of what you mentioned, which was, forgive me if I get this wrong. You said Site Planner, right? Was that correct?

[00:23:51] Miriam Schwab: Site planner, yeah.

[00:23:51] Nathan Wrigley: Okay. And this is a conversation that you have. This is something that I always find kind of interesting. You know, getting into a conversation with something which is essentially an AI, that’s kind of curious. But you mentioned that whole process was a back and forth. So it’s not, I want a website. You write this great, big, long prompt, click the button, wait for five minutes and kind of cross your fingers and hope for the best. This is more of a dialogue, is it? Where you repeatedly get asked a series of smaller questions, which hopefully then build up to the sort of final thing. Tell us a little bit more.

[00:24:19] Miriam Schwab: The way that works is, yes, you can like paste in some kind of giant prompt, but even then, whether you start with like one sentence or a prompt, the Site Planner will ask you questions, clarifying questions, and also suggestive questions. Do you want any of these types of pages, or content on your site? And things like that. It’s really good for guiding non-professionals.

It then creates actually a brief, like it writes out a brief for your website based on this conversation. So it’s really good for non-professionals who don’t know the questions to ask, right? They don’t know what they should be even considering. So it asks questions for them.

But it’s also great for professionals. It cuts down a lot of time in the research stage of building a site for a client. And the AI can actually like give them added value in terms of asking questions they might not have thought of. That conversation process can be cut short whenever the user wants. Like it can go on for as long as they want, but they can also say, that’s enough, let’s build the site based on what we discussed.

When the AI is creating the brief, it will tell you the strength of the brief, like in the top right corner of Site Planner. So once you get to the stage where it says strong brief, you could stop there, but you could keep going. The more information you give it, the better the outcome will be. Just like with AI in general.

So once you finish that conversation, you say, let’s move to the next stage. It creates a site map. So it shows the hierarchy of the site based on the conversation. But also, on each page it shows you like what type of content it will have, and it actually gives you the content. The nice thing about the way the AI builds the site is that, first of all, content is king, which it always has been on websites. And here you really get to see the strength of that.

So the content that it creates is really good because it’s based on this conversation that you had with it. At that site map stage you can drag and drop things around, add different pages that it didn’t include, remove sections from pages, but it’s just content chunks. Once you are happy with that stage, you go to the next stage, which is the website stage.

We call it the wireframe stage because it’s not like a fully designed site, it’s more like the site with a structure, but it’s like 80% of the way there. It could have like testimonials section, contact page form, gallery. I created a demo site for a cafe that also has community events. So it has an events page. It’s really great. It like really gets you 80% of the way there. It saves a lot of time, and if you’re a professional, you can show your client that at that stage and work off of that.

If anyone works with clients, you know that communicating and getting to a point where everyone’s happy can be very challenging when you don’t have something to show. But here, when you have something to show, you get past that blank canvas stage, which is very hard for people to like even imagine anything, and then you can work from there.

So once you have the wire frames done, also at that wire frame stage, by the way, you can also there edit things, remove things, et cetera. Change the colour palette, upload a logo to be used across the site, and things like that.

Then you can publish the site. You can publish it into our own hosting environment in one click, but you can also publish it into any existing Elementor account. You just kind of add your It hooks up to your account and it will send it to wherever that site is hosted. Or you can download and upload it somewhere else. So it gets you from zero to 80, or 90% of the way with a site through a conversation and then you can like tweak it, polish it, and finalise it from there. So it’s really useful in my opinion.

[00:27:34] Nathan Wrigley: So prior to the publication of it, you mentioned that you could show it to your clients. Is the capacity to have a public facing yet not public facing, if you know what I mean? So a URL, which is visible to you, but not the wider world for SEO and what have you. Is it possible to sort of take an up and running version, give it to a client so that they can have a little bit of a poke around?

[00:27:52] Miriam Schwab: That’s an interesting question. At that point, when it’s still in site planner, I think it’s only visible to you. So you would have to download and put it somewhere. But then you could put it in like a staging site or wherever you want to put it. You could share your screen with the client. But yeah, I think you can’t share the URL to that particular project within a third party.

[00:28:09] Nathan Wrigley: Because that’s all so very instantaneous compared to, you know, it may be that you get into this dialogue, which takes half an hour or what have you. But, you know, compared to the old way of building things, it’s more or less instantaneous. I had this notion that a service like that would be kind of interesting if it spat out four or five variations of the same thing at the same time.

So I realise there’s a sort of, you know, a burden in terms of technology and overhead and all of that, cPU time and what have you. But the idea of entering that client meeting with five versions of the same basic thing. So, okay, I have a, I don’t know, a bricks and mortar store and I sell widgets. So I build the one version, but Elementor, for example, in this scenario, builds me four others as well. And then I can go through and cherry pick which bits of this one do you like or, I like the colour scheme of that, if you know what I mean? So I don’t know if it’s possible to do that. In other words, is it possible to spin up multiple versions of the same thing, or would you have to sort of start from scratch each time?

[00:29:02] Miriam Schwab: Well, what you can do within the project is you can ask it to regenerate a section. Like, you could be like, I don’t like that. So you could say like, do it differently and then it will suggest something else. You could theoretically, I guess like create a second page, let’s say a second about page and then be like, okay, suggest a different format for me for this. Like a different structure because it’s not exactly design.

The design afterwards can be worked on with a client or whatever. It’s more like the structure of the page. So, and even though it’s a live website, it is like structure. So you could be like, no, I want the testimonials to be a different style, like suggest something else. And then you could show, I guess the customer various pages within the site. It’s an interesting idea.

I know that the team is working on Site Planner, and it will be more rolled into the WordPress Elementor environment, like in the site. Right now, it’s an external tool, so once it’s in there, you could like duplicate pages, you could regenerate pages, things like that. I don’t have an ETA on when that’s happening but that’s the general direction.

[00:29:58] Nathan Wrigley: It’s a fascinating conversation. And the other thing I was going to say is that there’s obviously, in your community, there’s a lot of people who are, they have a lot of history of building things with Elementor. They’ve learned the UI inside and out. They’ve become experts. They know where every checkbox is. If you show them something in Figma and then give them 10 minutes, they’ll mimic that perfectly.

And I was wondering what kind of capabilities the AI has within the Elementor interface. So in other words, does it do a sort of cookie cutter job of creating rows and sections and what have you, based upon things that have already been prebuilt? Or can it, in its AI wire frame stage, can it do, I don’t know, unique padding or crazy CSS things? Can it get into all of the bits and pieces that Elementor offers, all of those rich experiences? Or is it more kind of, okay, somebody in the team built these testimonial elements, and so we’re going to basically pick one of those and mimic that onto this wire frame?

[00:30:52] Miriam Schwab: So there’s Angie as it exists now and there’s Angies that will be over the next few months. So I’m going to be giving like, I guess kind of a sneak preview into what’s coming.

At the moment it can do a lot within Elementor, but it is kind of constrained within what Elementor classically does. However, v4 is going to enable the AI, or let’s say the v4 AI partnership will give it a lot more creative capabilities, and extend basically to whatever you want it to do, that you can do with Angie. From custom code snippets, to custom widgets, to custom anything, or working within the Elementor. There’s going to be a lot of interesting things that people can do, basically in some ways just limited by their creative ideas.

[00:31:38] Nathan Wrigley: Right, so much more granular. Because I have this vision that at some point in the future, and maybe some tool out there can do this. But I have this vision that, let’s say you’re inside Elementor, you’ve got 99% of the way there, and then you suddenly realise that that picture of the cat is the wrong cat. And so you just sort of say, can we have a different cat? No, not that one. Okay, that cat. And now, could we make the borders rounder on that particular image and give it a bit of a box shadow? That would be nice. Oh, and then swap it around so the text is on the other side.

So you end up in this sort of dialogue, almost like you’re chatting to the designer and you are watching over their shoulder as they build it. That seems to be the kind of place where we would love to get to. And then of course we enter this curious, difficult moment for the web developers and web designers, where these things become so dreadfully straightforward and easy that we then have to start questioning, how do you offer this as a client service if almost everybody can speak to a website and get it to do whatever you would like it to do?

So there’s two things in there. I sort of smuggled the last one in. But the first one is this sort of dialogue with the website, and then the second one is whether or not these tools are making it more difficult to be in the industry that we all love so much.

[00:32:44] Miriam Schwab: With regards to the dialogue description, so AI in general, it’s become like our team members for certain things. You know, in the past, if I wanted to, let’s say, post something on social media on behalf of Elementor, I would go to the design team and ask them to design something and go through that process, and then get what they gave me and then post it.

And now my design team is Nano Banana, right? Or ChatGPT. I get two versions, they compete against each other. Whichever one works best for me is what I take. And so it’s like that in almost everything we do if we’re using AI, and also in the world of website creation, design, development, and management. Our team for many aspects of it will become AI, which will create greater efficiency and also it seems like greater redundancy.

But I think like anything with a tool, the results will be defined by the abilities and skills of the person directing it. AI needs direction and that conversation to happen. And the quality of the results will be dependent on the skillset of the user, not skillset in terms of, how do I get AI to do stuff? But skillset of, what should an excellent website be?

So the human in the loop, I think, will continue to be a very important part. It’s just we’re kicking the can down the road kind of thing in terms of where we bring value. So instead of us bringing value, sitting and clicking on an image and changing the background using Photoshop, our value will be in being the director and producer of what output we want it to have and getting it there.

So we’re not like the tinkerers and like the hammer or nail people, we’re the contractor or the strategist, or the blueprint creators. So the conversations will take place, but the human in the loop part will still be really important. We all, whether we’re web creators or whatever profession we have, have to figure out how to use AI to help us do what we’re doing better.

I actually don’t exactly agree with the idea that AI helps us do more. It does, a lot of things become faster, but I think the value is that a lot of things get done better and a higher quality. So there’s that.

So how do we use AI to the best of our abilities to help us do our work even better. But also, how do we continue to provide value in a world that’s dominated by AI? And that’s like, I don’t know what the answers are. 2026 is going to be the year of, who knows? Because AI changes every second. They could invent a new model or release a new model tomorrow that changes this whole conversation.

[00:35:19] Nathan Wrigley: One of the things that, sort of round it off with this one maybe. I’m thinking about your support system. So your support system, which has built up over 10 years, and presumably worked to help your clients. But the clients themselves probably started with a blank canvas and then, you know, made mistakes along the way, but were able to describe the mistakes that they made along the way to your support agents. Like, okay, I was doing this and then something went wrong. Can you unpick that for me? Where did I go wrong?

The realignment that needs to take place for your support team with the advent of AI, I suppose is fairly profound because you’ll probably have a lot of users who will just know that they did a prompt. And now this thing happened and I didn’t want that thing to happen. How do I go back? I mean there’s obviously a case of click undo, or don’t save the changes or whatever. But I’m also imagining the support that you provide has to pivot a lot as well.

[00:36:06] Miriam Schwab: The development of AI has to include implementing a ton of guardrails to prevent users from doing things that can damage their site. I’ll give you an example. In the early days of Angie, I generally love pushing tools to their limits, so I was pushing Angie to its limit and I got it to kick me out of my own site and remove my user. And I was like, well that’s not cool. So guardrails were put in place around that.

There’s concepts of, first of all, not allowing a user to implement something until they’re sure. Like meaning, not just be like, hey AI, can you do this? And the AI is like, done. No. AI is like, okay, here’s what it will look like, here’s what it will do, that kind of thing. Do you want to go ahead? Then, of course, undo buttons.

But then even with all of that, yeah, support could be different. We can have logs and things like that about what happened and why it happened and things like that. And that can help troubleshoot things. But on the other hand, I think support can become much better because while still the human is in the loop, getting the answers to issues, you know, you end up with this huge knowledge base of stuff, and a support agent can only know so much. Our brains are finite. We don’t know what someone discovered yesterday as an issue and as a solution and all that kind of stuff. So once you have AI kind of like analysing your corpus of knowledge and then pulling out what can help you or the user, then that becomes much better.

But I’ll give you another interesting angle of where support becomes complicated, where you have the Abilities API, or Angie or both, and a user is interacting with Angie, let’s say, and Elementor and also a third party plugin that is also working with AI. And then there’s something borks. And then the user is like, was it Elementor that was a problem? Was it WordPress that was a problem? Was it this third party plugin that was a problem? How do I even ask for support when I don’t know what just caused that issue? I guess it’s another version of plugin conflicts, but it’s just taking it to another level.

[00:38:01] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, it’s a different level altogether. I said that was my final question. Turns out I was being insincere. I have one more. And that is, I know that Elementor has done a lot of work trying to make websites more accessible in the recent past. And so that’s the final question, I promise. The idea that we hand over the agency of this to our AI builder and so things like accessibility, there may be other things that we could smuggle in there as well, but we’ll go with accessibility. Is work being done to ensure that the output follows WCAG guidelines and things along those lines?

[00:38:32] Miriam Schwab: So something that I’ve seen as we’re working on implementing AI capabilities is that there’s this idea that I had, and I think others do as well, that AI is the all powerful whatever. And if you just say to it, make my site accessible, it will make my site accessible. So it turns out it’s not like that. Maybe one day it will be. But AI needs tools, needs direction, needs the capabilities, and it doesn’t just have it just because it’s AI.

So it’s kind of the same with accessibility. So actually Elementor created an accessibility plugin called Ally, which is very useful because it goes through the website, analyses it, tells you where there’s issues, but doesn’t just tell you where there is issues, it gives you solutions. And it can, with AI, implement those solutions. Like you can click and be like, fix that.

And that kind of ongoing accessibility assistance means that a person can, first of all do like a once through of their site and bring it to a better level of accessibility. We don’t guarantee like 100% accessibility, I don’t know if anyone can, but it improves accessibility on many levels.

And then as you’re going along, it can keep an eye on things or you can like trigger it and it can help make sure that whatever you’re doing going forward also stays within accessibility guidelines. So it’s like a really useful assistant, slash solution, slash tool that users can implement on an ongoing basis with their site. So worth checking out.

[00:39:59] Nathan Wrigley: Yeah, I’ll put that into the show notes as well. And if memory serves, I could be wrong about this, if memory serves it’s not an Elementor specific solution.

[00:40:06] Miriam Schwab: Oh, right, exactly. It’s for all sites, all WordPress sites.

[00:40:08] Nathan Wrigley: So any WordPress website can benefit from that. Okay, that’s interesting. Okay, so who knows what the year 2026 will bring. It no doubt will be chaos, turmoil.

[00:40:18] Miriam Schwab: It won’t be boring.

[00:40:19] Nathan Wrigley: That’s the words. Yeah, it definitely won’t be boring. And, yeah, good luck for Elementor in the year 2026.

[00:40:26] Miriam Schwab: Thank you. I’m excited, by the way, for 2026. It’s like a whole new world, and I think in some ways, at least for me, and I see this with others, it like reignited a spark for innovation in WordPress. WordPress is amazing, it’s been amazing for over 20 years and we’ve always, you know, been seeking, looking for ways to innovate. But AI takes it to a whole other level and makes innovation more accessible, if we’re going to use that word. And it’s really fun to see what people are creating around AI for WordPress. And I think we’re going to see some amazing things released over the course of 2026, not just by Elementor, that will make WordPress, wow. Anyways, that’s just my thoughts about 2026.

[00:41:00] Nathan Wrigley: Miriam Schwab, thank you for chatting to me today.

[00:41:02] Miriam Schwab: Thank you.